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Angels
Jan 13, 2009 3:53:54 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 13, 2009 3:53:54 GMT -5
I hate the very idea of zombies >.> much less zombies actually popping out due to whatever reason (wouldn't necessarily be necromancy as necromancy does not animate dead flesh), so the whole possession thing seems more plausible to me than zombie attacks.
As for the veil falling, who knows what will happen. I've always believed that miracles happen because they can, just as possession happens, and so on and so forth, and that the reason they do not occur more frequently than they do is because of a variety of factors, namely faith, any agreements that may be in place, etc.
So in that way, I don't think i acknowledge a "veil" so much as an inability to tap into ourselves on that level due to the restrictions of human physiology.
I do think a sort of, "unlocking" might occur, and that could be the falling of the "veil", or something.
Still... Truth be told, should such an event (veil falling and such) happen, one has to realize the enormity of what would happen. we are talking about "spiritual selves" to those who are incarnated angels, demons, what have you, who are ancient beyond what we might be able to perceive, finally shining through. There would be no fusion so much as a complete and utter realization of who/what we truly are. We would still remember and feel what we did in our human conditions, But...
will continue later. late and i have to get up early O.o
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Angels
Jan 13, 2009 10:14:27 GMT -5
Post by KG on Jan 13, 2009 10:14:27 GMT -5
Hi Xav,
Thanks for this!! It is more hopeful than some of the things I have read recently.
I think that the current downturn in the economy has caused a lot of people to feel dire. Not only does this increase the tendency to predict things like zombie attacks, and terrorist attacks, It is making a lot of bad energy, and I do worry about the accumulation of that somehow making monsters. I expect they will be astral though, and remain more or less energic. Soulless energy monsters like neg energy fields, pain bodies, and agrigores are dangerous enough though. Those pain bodies often take the form of 'zombies' (various walking corpses aready roam the earth as pain bodies in the astral.) Just like the movie zombies, they are slow and weak. Most of them seem to do nothing at all, but they are depressing to be around, whether we see them or not. They may not leave a mark, or even be observable, when they "jump out and bite you" but they do empact people's mood, sometimes profoundly. Feelings of hopelessness are very contageous, and that is what I anticipate fighting in the coming year, but not necessarily in the physical realm.
I believe that people's emotions tend to gather up around them, and form... as astral images, which are copies of the person, in a decaying state that symbolizes how they feel. I see these things, and they develop a sort of minor personality, and they tend to network with others of their kind. As long as no one deliberately disiaptes these enery fields, they tend to be immortal... or rather since they aren't alive they don't die. Instead they just attach to other people near by who have a similar disposition to the original host. I also think that most people are aware of these things on some level, though not consciously, and it is just depressing to have an image of your dead uncle Ralph bleeding all over the place, and looking like he's got leprosy or something. It is just gross on whatever level you percieve it.
If the world did go astral/physical I suppose these things might turn physical... again they aren't powerful but they are numerous... I tend to think though that they will remain astral, but all this negative energy is feeding them, and might make their effects on the emotions of people even more dire.
These things do possess in a sense, in that they influence a succeptable person, to whatever degree they can, mostly by making them depressed, clingy, and a spreader of mysery. It is hard to enjoy life with a pain body following you around.
Again I wan't to point out that possession is hardly ever a full blown take over of the persona. It is a persuasion, an influence, and perhaps an overtaking during periods of time when the individual is weak. I've heard it is possible that a person become completely possessed, but it is very very rare. In a case like that exorcism results in death. It is something to check for before you do an exorcism, but it's so rare, that I am not positive I've ever seen it... maybe once, in all my life and work. The good thing about possession, is there is a cure. Both a self cure, and an external cure, but ideally both together yield the best results.
That is exactly right Xav. I agree that most people have a lot of resistance to possession. We tend to occupy our bodies with extreme predjudice, influence of our moods is very possible, and most people have a few influences of that type, just from being around other people and wandering astral entities, but full possession is almost unheard of.
I think so, plus the physical material world is hard to manipulate. Astral entities are hard pressed to make a mark on our physical bodies when they attack. I have seen it, but they are always minor and barely noticable. WE know that matter is only vibrating molecules, and there are spaces between those molecules, but the fact is that we precieve them as SOLID objects, where as astral entities are as vapor, and it takes a great deal of energy for them to be palpable, or to move an object. They CAN but it takes a lot of energy. Ghost busters notice that their camera batteries get tapped out right after a manifestation. They sometimes report feeling exhausted themselves, as if their energy was used by the entity. It takes a lot of fuel to fuel even a weak manifestation of an astral entity, on the physical realm.
In the event of a "weakening of the veil" in one spot, it become a little easier for astral entities to make themselves seen, felt, and for them to move objects. People who see can see better under a weakening, and people who can't normally see start seeing. I don't have a clear mental image of the nature of the veil, but I see what it does. It seperates the world of matter, and keeps it from being easily influenced by psychic energy.
So you see this as a possibility too? I am really unsure if there will be a lasting change in the veil any time soon, but I have seen it falter in a spot, for a period of time. I don't know what this means.
That is good to know. I have only seen weakenings, and such. So if it came down, we would be fully our higher selves? That would be cool, and we would be better off not worse off. I think everything would work out fine if all the people in human bodies actually BECAME what they truely are. That would be fine actually.
Me too. Or at least now it is morning and I have chores which I just took a short break from.
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Angels
Jan 15, 2009 4:07:10 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 15, 2009 4:07:10 GMT -5
If the aeons are aspects of "god", then what is Lucifer since he is not an aeon?
Furthermore what is Lucifer? First made of "god"? What is he, his purpose, is he different from all others? Or unlike others, was he not given a purpose, a plan, allowed to be free unlike any other?
Why would "god" make Lucifer alone, no counter part unlike all others created. Is "god" raising lucifer the way "He" was raised, or the way he imagines how he would have wanted to have been raised?
Is Lucifers hatred infinite? Is that what keeps him alive, what keeps him existing even though all else has faded from him, is Lucifer a cold flame, so very bright, yet so very cold?
What could possibly change Lucifer? Do you have any ideas, feelings on that? Or do you believe that Lucifer is destined to be consumed by his hatred? Free will or destiny?
My own thoughts on the matter;
To destroy all existence, to burn this world and everything, everyone, everywhere, to ashes, and then to throw them at the feet of "god". Even if Lucifer did succeed, it's a hollow victory, to spite "god" in the ultimate way that he can, to wound "god" with a scar he will never recover from, to make "Him" forever bleed. By destroying what "He" loves most, to take it from him and forever erase it. Yes he could turn back the clock, he could create anew, he could forcibly change everything, but "He" ultimately would know that the existence "He" so loved and created was gone. That what stands before "Him" is no longer "His" child of Free Will, but that of His own Will which has erased that which he loves, that is of course if "He" chooses to act forcibly at any time to save "His" child, rather then let allow it to make its own choices.
And even if this did occur, what then for Lucifer? Purpose gone, all remaining connections to "god" severed, hatred and motivation ceases. No one left to destroy, truly would be alone.
Would Lucifer choose to pay the price, to destroy existence? To murder this world.
To open the "door" at an unexpected time, to bring about the "time" which most thought would not occur till much later, would seem impossible to most, but I guess he has cards up his sleeve. Think he could pull it off?
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Angels
Jan 15, 2009 17:05:56 GMT -5
Post by KG on Jan 15, 2009 17:05:56 GMT -5
Lucifer is/was an archangel. Now he is a fallen archangel. Angels are different than Aeons. They are constructed differently and they work differently. Angels tend to be identified by their jobs, while Aeons are identified by an atribute, which is energy/thought/ a concept, like Wisdom, or Knowledge or on a lower level Mercy, Prudence, Strength etc.
We are all parts of God, Aeons and Angels alike. It is hard to explain the difference, except that the aeons are actually representitive of parts of God's personality.
The best way I can explain it is to compare God to an ordinary human being. We are made in his image, and we all have different aspects. Some are more compartmentalized than others, but in general people are different at work than at home, than out with their buddies. Sometimes people have several different distinct personalities, and when they do, they each have an astral form. At least I see it that way. As I said in the astral we are more fluid, not a solid mass. Another word for Aeon is emination. WE do "eminate" different energies, and these Aeons are like that.
Angels are distinct and individual beings. They are generally singular souls, and when incarnate they are usually in one person such as Xav. Sophia on the other hand is incarnate in over 5000 souls all of which are eminations of her, each of whom represent an aspect of HER. In addition she is has influence over many many other people who are also eminated by her. They put off her energy along with their own unique atribute of her. Eminations have other eminations, like children or parts of the whole. Parts work together in teams, and as a whole structure.
Angels are pretty self contained. Xav is an angel, in human form. He is of course very human in body, and brain... and thus limited, just as I am as an emination of Sophia. Here on earth we are both limited in what we understand and can express because of the limitations of having to process things through our finite material brains. In our spiritual form though, neither is limited by that, and you might see more differences if you looked at that rather than the physical. Still mostly Angels and Aeons don't focus on differences, nor do we focus on rank. We have a job to do and we do it together. Some Angels work with or for Aeons, and they work with the various memebers of the entire system of the aeon. Aeons also work with each other.
Lucifer is far from unique. He is more of an example of something than a unique individual. He isn't any more free than any other entity. I don't see what any of this has to do with freedom. WE are all free to do as we please. Most of us don't want to do what Lucifer did.
I'll give you a more concrete example. Let's replace the concept of fallen with the idea of human serial killer. That is more definable because it can be materially represented. Jack the ripper is probably the most well known serial killer in the world. In some ways his name has become synonomous with that crime, but we all know that there are many others. WE could all come up with lists, just off the top of our head, and if we did research there are probably thousands of serial killers on the earth today. They don't all work for Jack the Ripper. They can work together, but don't usually... It isn't like they have a union or something. LOL However in a way Hitler had a group of serial killer types working for him. He attracted them, and formed a group. This doesn't mean alll serial killers work for Hitler either. Some did though, and his organization could be one of the largest groups of serial killers to ever work together. Most of them are lone wolves. Some are famous, some are only known in their home towns, and some... remain undiscovered, but they all do the same things, with the same kinds of sick motivations. They vary in motive, and psychosis, but they are all similar. Some are worse than others. Some think they are vigilanties metering out some kind of self made justice, while others just enjoy causing chaos. Some of them like Manson have a certain charm, and complexity, which facinates people. Many inspire copy cats.
Lucifer is no more unique or free than any other angel, Any more than a criminal is more free than a billionare altruist. The billionare, by giving, uses his freedom and almost unlimited power to aid others, while the criminal uses his freedom to steal, kill and destroy. The billionare could become a criminal but why? He has everything he needs, and he wants to help, not kill. Benevolence is not a lack of freedom. Some people don't want to be rogues, and killers. Like the killer Lucifer is a wanted man. I suppose he is hunted and hounded, for his crimes. He isn't free.
Imagine a rich man has many children. Some Love their father openly, and they follow in the man's footsteps. The rich man designs to have a massive give away, but also intends to build his wealth immeasurably in the mean time. The loving sons gladly distribute care packages all over the neighborhood. They enjoy seeing the children's faces light up, and they love it when elderly widows hug them and kiss their cheeks. They are having great fun, but meanwhile some of their brothers rebel. They spit in their father's face, and put bombs in some of the care packages. The good brothers are furious when they find out. It hurts them deeply. They are still free... and now they use thier freedom to go hunt down their cruel brothers.
Lucifer is not alone. He mearly lead a large uprising of angels. There are other fallens besides these, and there were huge numbers of angels who ploted with him. He is hardly without counterpart, or one like him. Fallens are a dime a dozen, just like serial killers. Fully one third of the angels fell with Lucifer, including some other Archangels. There is nothing special there, and I don't know why you think he is such a big deal. Lucifer isn't mentioned by name a lot. Just once or twice. The rest of the time the word is Satan, which means adversary, and is probably just as much or more discriptive of Demurge than Satan, but anyone can be an adversary, and there are MANY adversaries. Lucifer is not the one and only Satan, and I am not sure that he is Satan at all. The word Devil is also used, Demon, and etc. There are a host of creatures out there who are esentially the same as Lucifer. He really isn't that big of deal.
IDK? What do you think keeps him going, and I don't think he is all that bright.
Only Lucifer can change Lucifer, just as only you can change you, and only I can change I. People can try to influence, but everyone has free will. I don't honestly know how Lucifer is feeling lately. I see little evidence of him, and think the current plot, centers around Demurge.
I do know that it probably isn't all just an irrational desire to see people suffer. People give off energy when they suffer, and neg entities can use that. People give off positive energy when they are happy and positive entities can use that. Therefore it isn't likely that he enjoys people suffering because he is cruel. He enjoys it because it feeds him. Positive entities like myself and Xav, are benefited by good loving energy, we thrive among the thankful, and the gentle. Oppositely aligned beings thrive off misery, sorrow, despare, and hatred. Some types say that they can use either kind of energy equally. I really don't know how to do that, but I know that it involves changing the energy so that it works for you.
Imagine that you are the mother of several children, including Jeffery Dhalmer, and Al Gore, Osama, and Obama, Dr. Joseph Salk, and Dr. Joseph Mingala. Hitler, Stalen, and FDR. Which ones do you love? All of them? Which ones do you have to stop? That is a bit different. God seeks to keep Dhalmer from killing the rest. Just as any parent steps in and referees his/her toddlers, to keep them from bashing each other's brains in with the toy fire truck, that is what he does, and if you have children you know what I mean. The kids should know better but they don't always, and sometimes kids are just mean... but there parents still love them. Lucifer doesn't have to do anything else to break God's heart. It is already broken.
No because then he would be powerless. I dont' think Lucifer has the power or the intent to destroy the immortal, and the material is no big deal. God could if he chose keep the souls, and create new bodies of whatever type he chose, and create a new environment for them.
Lucifer is really built up in your mind as important, but he just isn't. He is one of many. He is not alone, unless he chooses to be. Lucifer isn't a huge deal. He is one single ArchAngel, not some all powerful thing. He has been allowed to rebel to his full extent, but so what? He isn't to blame for everything that goes wrong, and he isn't behind every door, as some people think. He is just one of many entities who are similar. He is not the greatest or the worst, he isn't the strongest thing in heaven or hell. He is just one individual, and it is really weird that people think so much about him. He is famous... that is all. If Arnold Swartzenager runs amock and becomes a serial killer, it would be kind of hard to take him down considering he is governor of California, and because he is big and strong, but I don't think he would be terrorizing the whole world for eons. LOL he is one person, and he isn't omnicient, he isn't all powerful, and he would be caught and dealt with. Even if he evaded capture there would be a limit to what he could do. It is the same with Lucifer. Lucifer is not God. He isn't even close, and it is crazy to think that he is going to do anything all that huge. Lucifer isn't even the Anti-Christ. That is a whole other thing.
However just as people claimed that Jessie James robbed trains sometimes ten or twenty a day at the same time in different states, there are a lot of people eager to say their problems are caused by Lucifer. No, Lucifer isn't that busy, and he isn't the only one, and it is only that we know his name that makes him famous, and held singularly responsible, when in fact crimes attributed to him are caused by entities he doesn't even know.
That isn't Lucifer's plan. He isn't in charge of all this. You have to think bigger. If Lucifer were the biggest problem God has he'd probably have his head on a pike, no matter how much God Love's him. Lucifer is nothing but a scapegoat, or a catch all phrase for anything that goes wrong. He isnt' to blame for even a tenth of all this. He probably isn't responsible at all.
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Angels
Jan 15, 2009 18:44:18 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 15, 2009 18:44:18 GMT -5
Why is it you like sophia?
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Angels
Jan 15, 2009 22:20:46 GMT -5
Post by KG on Jan 15, 2009 22:20:46 GMT -5
I work for her. I am the emination of Wisdom, known as Mercy. (There are other Mercies.) She is my mother in a way, and in very fractionally small way, I am her.
Also I have been a gnostic in most of my previous incarnations. Gnostics revere Sophia.
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Angels
Jan 15, 2009 22:24:14 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 15, 2009 22:24:14 GMT -5
If you want to view through a crimson stained lens..
Sophia is a lot like a child, an immature girl if you will, Sophias actions were a direct disobeying of "gods" words, a teen rebellion if you will, she did what she wanted to do regardless of what "dad" said to or not to.
And she paid the price for it, do you honestly believe "sophia" is held in honor or in high esteem? That "aeons" are any different from angels or humans?
The very term aeon is a massive creation of pride, to puff ones self up above others, even if only in their own perception. Sure one could say oh that is not how I see it, I am merely an aspect of "god", in finite human form, limited and imperfect always.
But pride shines through regardless of the words, mask and subtlety one employs or is obliviously wrapped in.
Aeons, angels, demons, fallen angels, sophia, lucifer, demiurge, all the same.
The only difference is the rose colored glasses you put on when looking at one and not the other.
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 0:14:03 GMT -5
Post by KG on Jan 16, 2009 0:14:03 GMT -5
I see. Yes you had asked why I was interested in Sophia.
I wasn't aware we were liooking through any sort of lens. I was only stating that Lucifer was not the only fallen or particularly special. It is more by chance that his name appears, in the Bible.
What is Lucifer to you that you are so defensive of him? Even if so what did I say that was so bad? I told you I do not know him, but I know other fallens. I have nothing aginst him personally, and really don't think he has a lot to do with most people's problems. They just think he does because he is the only name they know.
I have been doing deliverance for many years. I have observed the problems, influences, and various oppressions, and I have yet to see any connection between human problems and Lucifer. He isn't the Satan everyone loves to hate. that is all I am saying. Mankind has many problems, and he made most of them all by himself. Most of the "DEMONS" that plague human beings are created from the energy of human beings. Human ignorance and parinoia, are much more distructive than Lucifer, or Satan or any other external entity. Demurge is destructive because he knows how to use the ignorance and parinoia of mankind. If Lucifer even cares any more he might use man against himself also, but that is really the extent of anyone's power over anyone else. Manipulation is the name of the game, not brute force, or raw power.
Lucifer is a scape goat, someone who is known that is all. Like blaming all the train robberies on Jessie James, or assuming everyone who has ever set a bomb is from the middle east, or that everyone who has ever practiced slavery was in the Southern US at the time. None of that is true, nor is it true that Lucifer is to blame for all the ills of mankind or that he is at this very moment plotting our doom. I dont know what he is doing to be honest, but if he is plotting our doom, I am sure he isn't the only one.
He is fallen, and if he does take part in plaguing man kind then that is bad... he might, but I have not seen his signature on any of the massive problems mankind has. AT any rate I am just saying that you make the same assumption as many casual readers of the Bible. You assume that there is only one villian, despite the fact that they have different names. Some names are specific, like Baal, Belzebub, and Belial, and Levithan. Others are not really proper names, like Satan, Demon, Spirit, Devil etc. None of these are really that spacific.
To turn this entity into a hero is just strange. He made a mistake, he hasn't appologized, and I gather he isn't likely to, but who knows... at any rate he is responsible for whatever he has done, and no more than that. I honestly don't know what he has been doing since his fall, do you? I know it has been a very long time. I only see it as fair, not to make assumptions without evidence. He is not the only villian named in the bible, and most of the villians aren't named individually. That observation is not a matter of looking at it through a lens. It is a fact. For some reason Lucifer captured the imaginations of humans, but he is obviously not alone in being an adversary to God.
Sophia is naturally curious. IF that makes her child like, or cat like, or whatever metaphore you want to attach to curiosity, then I suppose so. Most intelectual beings are curious. She was drawn by the light of God, away from her post. She was seeking God, light and knowledge, but she did leave her post. She had no intention of being gone so long... and would not have been had Demurge not tricked and more or less abducted her. She was trying to go see her father, even though he said, "stay there" If in fact he did ever directly order her to stay put. I really don't know but at any rate she made a mistake for which she repented and appologized. She has been forgiven, and protected by God and eventually redeamed to her former status.
Those who do not feel that drive to seek God may not understand the pull of divine light, and of trying to understand the incomprehensible parts of God. It is crazymaking to want to know God. It is a drive greater than any other, like a hunger and that is what she succumbed to.
I believe that we are all something special. We all have our similarities and our differences. It isnt about rank, and rank hardly enters into it. God is all powerful, and when we work within his will, things seem to be easier. We all work for God, but we have a choice not to. You have a choice every day, what purpose you serve and what you do, and so does everyone else. I do believe that entities hold in honor what they respect. If they do not respect wisdom, then I don't suppose they honor Sophia.
The term Aeon is just a name for a being. Like Angel, Dog, Cat, or Gold Fish. Are gold fish proud to be gold fish? Probably. LOL
People are what they are, and I doubt very seriously that anyone has the full energy of a whole aeon within them. Pride has been seen as a positive thing in the western world for centuries, and at times as a bad thing also. Pride has both positive and negative conotations. Today there is a lot of talk about pride. There is pride in a person's race or heritage, or even in their sexual orientation... IDK if that is bad or good... it just is.
I think that words in the bible loose something in the translation. Biblical Hebrew consists of only about 5000 words. English has considerably more, but often there is no word that is an exact match for that hebrew word. Also culture comes into play when reading books that are even a hundred years old, much less thousands of years old. I have studied many words used in the old testiment, but I have never done a word study on pride. I know that most of our grandparents thought pride was a good thing. The bible uses it in a different way.
I do not think that people need to feel bad about any aspect of their nature in order to avoid the sin of pride. Nor do I think they should deny what they are because someone might think it is prideful of them to even say it. Xav is an angel, I am part of a multiply incarnated aeon. I don't know if the emotion I feel when I think of it is pride, or not. It is just a fact, and I am certain that everyone's soul is equally special. I only know my own situation though, and what others tell me. I know that there are many beings more powerful than myself, and I know that I have a job to do. I like my job and I might even be proud of it. I was proud of my earthly father and grand father, at least by some definition of the word, so why should I be ashamed of my spiritual mother? Whether proud or ashamed, she is still my mother, and so I am part of that.
It is quite possible that everyone or most everyone, is some sort of an emination from an aeon. It would make sense. The aeon's start at the top with the oldest ones, and keep on eminating down till they begat all of our human souls. I have played with that theory, and so far see no real evidence against it, but I really don't know for sure. I only know what I am. It is really none of my business what everyone else is.
In some ways that is true. Our constitution says that all MEN are created equal. Yet some people are in prison, and some are poverty stricken while others are wealthy. Some people are bright and others are slow. Some are respected and others aren't. It all depends on your perception of what same means. God loves us all, and in that way we are the same. We all have potential both for good and bad, but at some point what we do with what we have been given determines our fate. Both things within our control, and things beyond our control determine our fate, but some people do have more determination than others, to overcome their circumstances... and again, is that a good thing or a bad thing. I do not know if it is good or bad, but it exists as a factor in success.
I haven't gotten a look at Lucifer yet. I don't know Lucifer. He isn't part of my world. I know Sophia well, and I like her. I talk to her frequently, and so I think about her and talk about her. I told you from the beginning I don't know Lucifer, so nothing I say about him is personal like or dislike. I know the stories, same as you, and past that, I know others of his kind. I do know that if he were my problem or part of the situation at hand, which I am required to deal with, I would know him.
I do believe that people blame Lucifer for things he has nothing to do with. I know most people think he is Satan, but when you go back to the original greek in the new testiment, and you read what is actually being said, it doesn't fit really well. If Lucifer is not THE Satan, or if there is more than one Satan (Adversary) it puts him in the position of being much more obscure. I just don't think that Lucifer fits as being Satan.
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 0:30:54 GMT -5
Post by Del on Jan 16, 2009 0:30:54 GMT -5
If you want to view through a crimson stained lens.. Sophia is a lot like a child, an immature girl if you will, Sophias actions were a direct disobeying of "gods" words, a teen rebellion if you will, she did what she wanted to do regardless of what "dad" said to or not to. And she paid the price for it, do you honestly believe "Sophia" is held in honor or in high esteem? That "aeons" are any different from angels or humans? The very term aeon is a massive creation of pride, to puff ones self up above others, even if only in their own perception. Sure one could say oh that is not how I see it, I am merely an aspect of "god", in finite human form, limited and imperfect always. But pride shines through regardless of the words, mask and subtlety one employs or is obliviously wrapped in. Aeons, angels, demons, fallen angels, Sophia, Lucifer, demiurge, all the same. The only difference is the rose colored glasses you put on when looking at one and not the other. I'm curious to know what gods' words were at the time, what they are now, and why her actions are seen as 'childish' because she wanted to do what she wanted to do. Perhaps it is you that see her actions as childish [you and those that have the same view of her actions like yourself]. Sophia means 'Wisdom' [which I am sure you are aware of]...I don't think Wisdom can be given a characteristic like that of 'childish'. Maybe 'childlike', since all children are closest to the nature of wisdom before the subjugation of the adults in their life... A lot like a child...the true nature of children is a sacred state of being. The rebellious teenager is one that attempts to break away from being subjected to 'something' that suppresses their desire to discover more of who they are. They're lacking something for their development and the best way for them to express it is through rebelling. If parents aren't listening, then this is where the problem arises. If you are name calling, or calling out of character Sophia's behavior, please be sure to pinpoint the denotative words that correctly describe her actions. I am assuming you've chosen 'childish' as in a rebellious teen based on your understanding of what a rebellious teen is. Do you truly understand the rebellious teen? Rebellions happen because of an oppression of some sort...in most cases. Those that have held great Wisdom in the past were persecuted because of it - Socrates, Galileo, Joan of Arc, etc, etc. So, in using your perception of Sophia's/Wisdom's actions as an example, all of these people were childish and behaved as rebellious teens because they went against the governing power, spreading wisdom. A direct image of how it happened above...as above, so below. If that's the case, who is to say that it was the 'all loving God' she was 'rebelling' against? We were made in 'God's' image...hence the 'human' characteristic that you see in these Aeons, angels, etc, etc, are mirror images of what exists in Humans. I could say that Human are gods on earth. They behave just like the labels you have listed here on the board. The only difference in their state of being is finite. We/They/Everything is all the same. It's the state of being that's different. Is that to say she was oppressed by God? I don't know. Things happen for a reason, IMO. Her long return could have had to do with how she went about doing things, but to call it 'childish' and 'teenage rebellion' without fully understanding the nature of the words you're using [if you do not]...to me is just lop-sided... To be of wisdom is prideful, childish, and rebellious; to not be of wisdom is to follow god...is that what you're saying?
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 0:54:48 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 16, 2009 0:54:48 GMT -5
If you want to view through a crimson stained lens.. Sophia is a lot like a child, an immature girl if you will, Sophias actions were a direct disobeying of "gods" words, a teen rebellion if you will, she did what she wanted to do regardless of what "dad" said to or not to. And she paid the price for it, do you honestly believe "Sophia" is held in honor or in high esteem? That "aeons" are any different from angels or humans? The very term aeon is a massive creation of pride, to puff ones self up above others, even if only in their own perception. Sure one could say oh that is not how I see it, I am merely an aspect of "god", in finite human form, limited and imperfect always. But pride shines through regardless of the words, mask and subtlety one employs or is obliviously wrapped in. Aeons, angels, demons, fallen angels, Sophia, Lucifer, demiurge, all the same. The only difference is the rose colored glasses you put on when looking at one and not the other. I'm curious to know what gods' words were at the time, what they are now, and why her actions are seen as 'childish' because she wanted to do what she wanted to do. Perhaps it is you that see her actions as childish [you and those that have the same view of her actions like yourself]. Sophia means 'Wisdom' [which I am sure you are aware of]...I don't think Wisdom can be given a characteristic like that of 'childish'. Maybe 'childlike', since all children are closest to the nature of wisdom before the subjugation of the adults in their life... A lot like a child...the true nature of children is a sacred state of being. The rebellious teenager is one that attempts to break away from being subjected to 'something' that suppresses their desire to discover more of who they are. They're lacking something for their development and the best way for them to express it is through rebelling. If parents aren't listening, then this is where the problem arises. If you are name calling, or calling out of character Sophia's behavior, please be sure to pinpoint the denotative words that correctly describe her actions. I am assuming you've chosen 'childish' as in a rebellious teen based on your understanding of what a rebellious teen is. Do you truly understand the rebellious teen? Rebellions happen because of an oppression of some sort...in most cases. Those that have held great Wisdom in the past were persecuted because of it - Socrates, Galileo, Joan of Arc, etc, etc. So, in using your perception of Sophia's/Wisdom's actions as an example, all of these people were childish and behaved as rebellious teens because they went against the governing power, spreading wisdom. A direct image of how it happened above...as above, so below. If that's the case, who is to say that it was the 'all loving God' she was 'rebelling' against? We were made in 'God's' image...hence the 'human' characteristic that you see in these Aeons, angels, etc, etc, are mirror images of what exists in Humans. I could say that Human are gods on earth. They behave just like the labels you have listed here on the board. The only difference in their state of being is finite. We/They/Everything is all the same. It's the state of being that's different. Is that to say she was oppressed by God? I don't know. Things happen for a reason, IMO. Her long return could have had to do with how she went about doing things, but to call it 'childish' and 'teenage rebellion' without fully understanding the nature of the words you're using [if you do not]...to me is just lop-sided... To be of wisdom is prideful, childish, and rebellious; to not be of wisdom is to follow god...is that what you're saying? Your entire defense is hinged upon the illusion that "sophia" is wisdom incarnate. Do you honestly believe this? Well if thats the case, Lucifer is the bearer of all the light in existence, thus he could never do some thing counter productive to the "gods" plan, for he is aware and illuminated to all things, after all his name means the bearer of light, but I'm sure you knew that. Ah so were going analyze the very social dynamics of what defines teenage rebellion. Teenage rebellion is not restricted to one genre of influence or motivation, in large part it is due to the underdeveloped pre frontal cortex which all adolescents experience as the neural pathways are still being developed from the pre frontal cortex. Adolescents also have a very skewed view of how others are interacting with them, and a large majority of the time they will interpret it as hostile on a biological level due to the imbalance of their still developing neural receptors, and consequently with their neural substrates. Moving, I digress, Sophia is the epitome of a teenage girl, who didn't like what she was told, who believed like most adolescents that she knew better, that she was smarter then she was being given credit for, that ultimately what she was doing was good and "right". Oh but dad has been around the block more times then she, and wouldn't you know she didn't listen to pops. So she sneaks out of the house without permission, soon after shes calling for dear old dad to come pick her up, because she got a flat and doesn't have a ride home. Well like all adolescents shes got things to learn and an ego to get under control, sophia, demiurge, there all the same, none is better then the other. Like teenagers, each thinking they understand existence on a level like no other, that their way is the way that is the way that the "god" has laid out. But they find out eventually, its their own way they created, and often more so then not, its a dead end, same for sophia, same for demiurge, same for satan, same for George bush, same for bob the plumber, Cassey the car sales woman.
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 3:42:48 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 16, 2009 3:42:48 GMT -5
I would like to point out that Lucifer was never the bearer of light of all creation. When he was first made, that is what he represented. After wall he was first born of the angels and closest to perfection an Angel could start out as.
He was in that sense, special. And in accordance with that, he was gifted a great amount of power, yes. But he never held the light of all creation.
As an example... Michael. He who is like God. That is what the name means. It represents what he stands for and his attributes. But that does not mean he has all the powers OF God. (granted, there is a great deal of trust placed in Michael).
So in essence, to answer an earlier question - Lucifer is not an Aeon. He was a member of the Cherubim (And of the Seraphim). An Archangel, and an exiled prince.
And there is a bit of confusion on this but Lucifer and satan are the same being. that is my feeling on that.
and just to clear it up so it doesn't cause confusions since i said one thing and something else is being said - Xavrael is an Archangel, yes... but his creation and the time of his creation is more akin to that of an Aeon, so it's something more in between. Standard stuff when it comes to things born in a void before creation. things are not nearly so cut and dry O.o, and that applies to purpose as well it seems like.
late, will add more later hopefully O.o
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 4:07:49 GMT -5
Post by KG on Jan 16, 2009 4:07:49 GMT -5
Yes, I believe that Sophia is wisdom. She houses the wisdom of God. Have you read any of the real texts yet? I notice that you have read some more information somewhere, but it seems skewed.
I also notice that it angers you that we minimize the importance of Lucifer, which you have totally blown up out of proportion, to the point he is an actual threat to the whole universe. I'm just saying he isn't the only fallen out there. He's not some lonely only only one of his kind guy.
I don't know that what he did was so bad, or that he didn't have his reasons. I am sure he did. I told you that to start with. It is my understanding that Demurge goaded him into it.
I thought that all of this was just intelectual banter for you anyway, just some intelectual exercise, but it seems you have some real interest in Lucifer? Something tangible, past debate material.
I don't care that much about the topic really. He isn't my problem, nor am I overly facinated with him one way or the other. If you want to think he is a great guy, then that is just fine with me. To me he's just another stuborn guy, who could appologize if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to, so there is nothing anyone can do for him till he does.
The biggest difference between him and Sophia is three little words. "I am sorry." What Sophia did was sort of an accident, but still the first thing she did was cry out to God and appologize, and tell him how much she loved him. Lucifer could do the same, but he won't and that is the huge difference. It doesn't matter what you have done, there is forgiveness, if you ask. If you don't ask for forgiveness, or try to make amends, then there is nothing anyone can do.
No this is not the situation at all. IT has nothing to do with age or rebelion. Sophia did not in any way rebel. She was not running away from her father. She was trying to go to him. She wanted to be closer. There is nothing childish about that. IT is just part of being a daughter. From the first time a toddler climbs into her dad's lap and looks him straight in the eye, till the last time she as a middle aged woman leans over his dying body, to comfort him, it is the same emotion. She loves and adores and admires her father and she wants to be as close as possible. All her life, she wants to know everything about him. She wants to know his secrets, what he does at work, how he shaves in the morning, and what he thinks about. There is absolutely NO rebellion in that at all, only love, and admiration.
Sophia could no longer withstand the distance between she and her father. She sought to see his face, and to be near. She wanted to know more about him, and what he was thinking. She embarked on a journey, and was intercepted by Demurge.
Demurge was like the cold stoic brother, who assumed she was just kissing up to get favoritism. He was jealous because that emotion isn't in his nature apparently, and so he abducted her, and caused her to fall to earth. God protected her from him, and started a rescue plan that took several thousand years to carry out.
If you want a metaphore the one you have is not in any way accurate. A more accurate story would be of a young pregnant woman who was working for the family business in a city far from home. One day she boards a plane, overwhelmed with being homesick for her parents. It is such an impulse that she doesn't even inform her place of work that she is leaving... she will notify her father when she arives, and then her dad can let her co-workers know where she is. Her dad as her boss wanted her to go, but she misses him. What father would be angered by that? So she decides to fly home, but her plane is forced down by hijackers intent on doing her harm. She is injured in the crash, and miscarries. She calls her dad on the cell phone, crying and appologizing for being so impulsive and putting him through this. She only meant to visit but now she is farther than ever from home, She has lost her baby, and is very frightened. That is the story of Sophia, not of sneeking away like a rebelious teen, but leaving her job because she misses her dad, and getting hijacked by a terrorist.
I won't say she did nothing at all wrong, and neither would she, but what she did, she did for love and not rebellion. She was the first to admit that she was in the wrong, even though I can personally understand why she did it.
If Sophia is an adolecent, how old are you?
Xav,
Thanks for the comment. I found the part about your age very interesting. Are you saying you are older than Lucifer? As you know I am not very old at all, and so it was all before my time.
It is my opinion that the word Satan, just means adversary. Lucifer would qualify as an adversary, but so would others. He was definitely the adversary during the war in heaven though. He is mentioned in the Bible by the name Lucifer, in only one or two places? I thought it was more really, but I was looking for it and can only find it once. Satan is called the accuser. Does Lucifer accuse others. To me that sounds like Demurge, and it is easier for me to imagine Demurge in the Satan role in Job as well. I wasn't aware that God and Lucifer spoke after Lucifer's fall. Overall the concept of Job always made me feel a little uneasy anyway. IDK
I really don't know Lucifer. Honestly it seems strange that I don't ever encounter him. Do you ever see him any more? Is he still even around? Has he gone missing? I see a lot of various fallens, but never Lucifer. No one ever mentions him anymore, at least not that I talk to in the spiritual realm.
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 6:33:32 GMT -5
Post by stonerwolf on Jan 16, 2009 6:33:32 GMT -5
In regards to sophia being in any way childish...
How does one become wise? what is the path to wisdom?
Is it blindly following authority, such as 'mom' and 'dad's rules, being a "good kid" and doing what you're told?
is that how you learn?
do you not question, and experience in order to gain wisdom?
Of course sophia is childish. she is the harborer of wisdom, thus the greatest fool.
Patience is learned from humiliation, and humiliation comes from making mistakes. if patience is not wise, then sophia is merely a fool.
The greatest of fools will have a hard life and make many mistakes, but those who survive the trials of the fool become the greatest bearers of wisdom and experience.
as far as lucifer being a fallen prince and whatnot... corruption does not come from nowhere. experience makes the man. first, yes lucifer held the capicity to be corrupted, but no, not without further corruptive influence, therefore satan is the trickster who leads lucifer astray.
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 11:49:30 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 16, 2009 11:49:30 GMT -5
Er.. yes, I'm older than Lucifer. by a great deal. In terms of having existed and when, has always somewhat coincided with whatever my purpose was. It's slightly nebulous but i have an idea now.
Xav existed and was created at the same time as the Aeons (hence why i said that in that aspect and how he was created is more akin to being an Aeon).
Granted, that's just what I call them - in the very beginning, there was simply God. then there were the aspects that were born (so I say Aeon), and that was when Xav was born.
As for Satan/Lucifer, a few sources say they were cast out for the same reason. Others say it's a misinterpretation that they are one in the same, despite attributes that are attributed to one, are also attributed to the other.
If satan means adversary (it does), then Lucifer would be it. Satan did not lead him astray because Lucifer considered himself a God higher than the creator, what use would he have of a lowly Archangel named Satan?
So no. Lucifer is Satan, and is called many other names. Remember, we, the way we are now, cannot comprehend the power of an angel. We can read about it. But It is certain that it is beyond whatever we may know now. How much more then, would a first born Archangel have? An annointed Archangel Prince of heaven? He was God's favored in the beginning.
Now mind you, i'm not building him up. I'm stating what he was. When he fell, he lost all of that but that does not mean he lost his power, not all of it. Certain things were closed off to him. But there are other ways, if far inferior that might get the job done for some things (stating possibility here, not saying there are ways to counteract hard blocked things...more like having a match where you once had a flamethrower... regarding things that may or may not be denied.)
He is called the great deceiver for a reason, and it assuredly was not because he was ok at playing pranks.
This of course is just my opinion on the matter of Luci. The problem with so many sources on the matter is that they all are slightly different in regards to Lucifer and Satan.
so it tends to have the subject become slightly less certain. (like...we know who Michael is... we know who Azazel is, and we know who Metatron is. there is no question of who these people are.)
Edit: Forgot to add... the reason for not seeing him? While numerous, the main thing to remember is this. Angel or Devil, we are still eternal - so time for us, is not measured the same as those who are *not* eternal. He may simply be waiting or attending other matters. Who knows?
Despite what he is, and what he has done, in the grand scheme of things, he means little. Humanity has a way of overcoming hardship and being better for it (eventually), and Lucifer's kicking and screaming will do little to deter it from becoming whatever it is that God has in mind.
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Angels
Jan 16, 2009 13:18:51 GMT -5
Post by Del on Jan 16, 2009 13:18:51 GMT -5
I'm curious to know what gods' words were at the time, what they are now, and why her actions are seen as 'childish' because she wanted to do what she wanted to do. Perhaps it is you that see her actions as childish [you and those that have the same view of her actions like yourself]. Sophia means 'Wisdom' [which I am sure you are aware of]...I don't think Wisdom can be given a characteristic like that of 'childish'. Maybe 'childlike', since all children are closest to the nature of wisdom before the subjugation of the adults in their life... A lot like a child...the true nature of children is a sacred state of being. The rebellious teenager is one that attempts to break away from being subjected to 'something' that suppresses their desire to discover more of who they are. They're lacking something for their development and the best way for them to express it is through rebelling. If parents aren't listening, then this is where the problem arises. If you are name calling, or calling out of character Sophia's behavior, please be sure to pinpoint the denotative words that correctly describe her actions. I am assuming you've chosen 'childish' as in a rebellious teen based on your understanding of what a rebellious teen is. Do you truly understand the rebellious teen? Rebellions happen because of an oppression of some sort...in most cases. Those that have held great Wisdom in the past were persecuted because of it - Socrates, Galileo, Joan of Arc, etc, etc. So, in using your perception of Sophia's/Wisdom's actions as an example, all of these people were childish and behaved as rebellious teens because they went against the governing power, spreading wisdom. A direct image of how it happened above...as above, so below. If that's the case, who is to say that it was the 'all loving God' she was 'rebelling' against? We were made in 'God's' image...hence the 'human' characteristic that you see in these Aeons, angels, etc, etc, are mirror images of what exists in Humans. I could say that Human are gods on earth. They behave just like the labels you have listed here on the board. The only difference in their state of being is finite. We/They/Everything is all the same. It's the state of being that's different. Is that to say she was oppressed by God? I don't know. Things happen for a reason, IMO. Her long return could have had to do with how she went about doing things, but to call it 'childish' and 'teenage rebellion' without fully understanding the nature of the words you're using [if you do not]...to me is just lop-sided... To be of wisdom is prideful, childish, and rebellious; to not be of wisdom is to follow god...is that what you're saying? Your entire defense is hinged upon the illusion that "sophia" is wisdom incarnate. Do you honestly believe this? Well if thats the case, Lucifer is the bearer of all the light in existence, thus he could never do some thing counter productive to the "gods" plan, for he is aware and illuminated to all things, after all his name means the bearer of light, but I'm sure you knew that. Ah so were going analyze the very social dynamics of what defines teenage rebellion. Teenage rebellion is not restricted to one genre of influence or motivation, in large part it is due to the underdeveloped pre frontal cortex which all adolescents experience as the neural pathways are still being developed from the pre frontal cortex. Adolescents also have a very skewed view of how others are interacting with them, and a large majority of the time they will interpret it as hostile on a biological level due to the imbalance of their still developing neural receptors, and consequently with their neural substrates. Moving, I digress, Sophia is the epitome of a teenage girl, who didn't like what she was told, who believed like most adolescents that she knew better, that she was smarter then she was being given credit for, that ultimately what she was doing was good and "right". Oh but dad has been around the block more times then she, and wouldn't you know she didn't listen to pops. So she sneaks out of the house without permission, soon after shes calling for dear old dad to come pick her up, because she got a flat and doesn't have a ride home. Well like all adolescents shes got things to learn and an ego to get under control, sophia, demiurge, there all the same, none is better then the other. Like teenagers, each thinking they understand existence on a level like no other, that their way is the way that is the way that the "god" has laid out. But they find out eventually, its their own way they created, and often more so then not, its a dead end, same for sophia, same for demiurge, same for satan, same for George bush, same for bob the plumber, Cassey the car sales woman. With all due respect Cassiel, you're analysis and interpretation of teenage rebellion is more based on Westernized thought than anything and you're missing the other half. The human developmental spectrum extends beyond the westernized scientific analysis and view. Perhaps if teenagers were given a broader view of how they can develop themselves instead of being told the status quo is what they need to achieve, then things would be a little different. That's where their neurotic behavior stems from.What you speak of, is the typical neurotic way of life 99% of westerners experience. And THAT is where your lop-sided half pint view comes into play.
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