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Angels
Apr 6, 2009 6:20:28 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 6, 2009 6:20:28 GMT -5
The gift of love to give to the one you love, to sacrifice that which you could have, happiness, joy, to sacrifice it and not have it.
What to give to one who has "everything" you give the lack of some thing, a negative, you could give peace, joy, but peace and joy is already had, so you sacrifice your own peace and joy and give that as a gift.
To explore every shade and aspect of reality, for Him, to reflect every particle of Light that is Him, even the ones no one else will.
You could choose to be happy, to be peaceful, to make amends with all others and let reality flow smoothly, but as you sit there pondering, looking upon all existence you feel sorrow as the One you Love most is not being fulfilled.
To wage war against all reality, to stir up all existence, to resonate and vibrate every note, yes many are hurt, many pass from one realm to the next. But so it is for the One you Love.
For I would sacrifice all for Him, the One I Love.
Would you?
In the "end" as I will stand there at the door of eternity looking back as all existence crumbles to nothing, as all flows forward through the door to everlasting Life. I will stand there and smile as each and every one passes through, for I will not cease until all have gone onward.
As the lights will beckon for me to cross through with them, I will not, for as I have said from the beginning I will burn existence to Ash, and I will forever close the door so none may ever pass through again.
An Individual once said to me, "When you see oblivion coming towards you, you will fear", yes I will fear but I will smile as I embrace "Oblivion" in open arms, for I will cease to be.
To burn forever, in all infinite, in the fire you so Love.
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Angels
Apr 6, 2009 9:34:58 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 6, 2009 9:34:58 GMT -5
Yourself. Your love and admiration, your awe and wonder at his spectacular being. That is all anyone can give anyway.
People with joy and peace do not want disturbance and conflict. It does not complete them, it disturbs them. Conflict for conflict sake is just irritating.
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I know a certain woman, whom is a very beautiful woman, physically speaking. When she was young she had a great deal of charasma. She seemed fun, and she was a party girl. Beautiful, beyond what makeup can do, she rarely wore it. She was prettier just getting out of bed, with her hair a mess, and with sleepy eyes, than most anyone else could look with hours of make-up.
Naturally she had suitors by the hundreds, lovers by the score. In addition to her beauty she had a sad story, of a childhood gone wrong. This story would make grown men weep and rage in her defence. Between the beauty of her face, her natural charasma, and the complexity of her story, she could have her pick of these men. Instead of being sweet and kind though, she chose to be cruel. She abused her lovers. She cursed them, beat them, and all the while they were slaves to her charasmatic charm, that went deeper than mere behavior. It is amazing what most men will put up with from a beautiful woman.
She was a drama queen, and her drama was the best. It was sticky and adictive. They were all drawn to it like bees to a clover field, and there was plenty of honey to go around. She went through more lovers than an alergy sufferer goes through klenex and she regarded them about the same. She used them till she used them up and then discareded them like so much trash.
As she grew older though, the bitterness of her story became greater and greater. Her sad childhood, once merely a manipulitive tool, with an occasional opportunity to express genuine pain, started to impact her. It also started to grow. As she eventually drove away more and more of her suitors with her wrath, her manipulations, her bitterness, and her growing parinoia, she begain to see them also as abusers, and exploiters.
She kept a careful and one sided account of her life, where she only gave and everyone else took from her, however in reality, she took and took, until people had no more to give. Then when people stopped giving cause they were exhausted of resources, she took that as a debit to her. In her checks and balances her growing and immeasurable debit was ignored, and only the times that she paid the cost, did she record.
Her partying also increased, and she drank and drank. She was an alcoholic by age 15, but somehow it was cute till she was nearly 30. Then a change started taking her. She would get drunk and call her old friends, and ex lovers, and she would recount to them every time they let her down. She listed every time they ran out of resources, and did not give to her. She listed every time they acted in their own best interest and not hers, and if they gave her their home, their car, and their life savings, but borrowed a q-tip, she reminded them of the q-tip.
This woman recently told me that she had given and given. She had been a caretaker all her life. She had not ever been loose moraled or promiscuious, but a steadfast and and forthright person in all her dealings. I nearly choked, but I sensed honesty in her voice. That was the way she remembered it. That was the way she percieved it the whole time. She really didn't count all the times she was cruel. She was justifably angry. She didn't count all the times she bankrupted men's souls, and their wallets at the same time. Nor did she realize how many of them she had driven to the brink of insanity and past for the love of her.
I her loyal friend, family member and serogate mother, did remember though. I had listened to these men, beg me to scheme with them to get her back, even though they no longer had money or cars or homes to share. I listened to how they truely believed that they had failed her. They were good men, kind hearted men, and they only felt devotion to her endless needs, and sorrow that they were unable to fill them all.
In the end though this young woman is alone. She is drunken, unemployed, parinoid, and lost. She is loosing her house, her car, her only child, and she has already lost the support of her friends and family. More importantly she has lost her credibility with everyone who knows her. Her old lovers, finally released from her spell, now look forward to her calls. They secretly laugh at her problems, and tolerate her drunken, accusing, parinoid voice, just to hear these awful things that have befallen her, just so they can gloat.
My how the mighty have fallen. I however did not gloat when I took my call. I was deeply saddened, but I can no longer help her. I told her to sober up, get a job and stop begging and whining, because no one can help her but her. I miss her, but the person I miss is gone. She has changed, and she is no longer the bright light, and the life of the party. Her drama has gone stale, and her magical smile is obviously drunken, and no longer in a cute way. He complex story is now riddled with inconsistencies, and lies. No one wants her drama. No one wants to help her, especially if that means tolerating her presence. Her drama, once intreguing is just irritating now.
We've all heard it before and the story never changes. Blaming good men for her own irresponsibility. Blaming her family for not answering her calls, or heeding her cries for help. Blaming her friends fo distancing themselves as much as possible from the drama. It is everyone's fault but hers. It is everyone's evil plot to bring her down. It is all about her, and how she was abused. All about her struggles, and her efforts, and her drama. She is a victim of her own drama, captured in her own web of deception.
I somehow think her story is very similar to Lucifer's.
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Angels
Apr 6, 2009 16:41:13 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 6, 2009 16:41:13 GMT -5
That is all you choose that you can give, not what others can give.
Do not think that your own choices upon what you can give, is all that there is for others to give, it is not.
Do you speak for all existence, of what anyone can give?
Do you speak for God of what he needs, and does not need?
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Angels
Apr 6, 2009 19:10:49 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 6, 2009 19:10:49 GMT -5
To back up a bit;
I find it hard to believe that anyone, even God needs more Drama. More problems, or for someone to attack his armies. Who would want that?
It sounds almost as if you are saying God was bored so Lucifer invented Jerry Springer, or at least that Jerry Springer mentality... All I am hearing from you sounds like Drama for the sake of Drama. Why would an intelligent being want that?
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Angels
Apr 6, 2009 23:12:25 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 6, 2009 23:12:25 GMT -5
Intelligence defined by your subjective perception, not by my own or any others.
Drama is what you see, not what others see, live your life as you so choose, if another rises against you, then do combat with that one or choose not to do combat with that one, the choice is yours just as the choice is for everyone to perceive what they choose and not what you choose.
"God" is defined by what you know and perceive, do you know who and what God is more then what you know of your own self? Is your wisdom and understanding beyond your own self? If so then why do you ask the questions you do? Why do you state it is drama, or jerry springer like mentality that lucifer brought forth?
Your perception is your own, your view of "God" is ultimately your own, as all others are their own.
Ultimately you have defined God to your own parameters and fashioned "Its'" personality to your own likeness. Your view of God, your relationship with God is yours, just as all others have their perception and relationship with God.
So yes do so ask me your questions, but ultimately only you can answer them as "god" in your questions is your own self mentality, and you stagnate in stepping beyond the chalk drawn lines of your own world to see the perceptions of others. without the inhibition of your own rose colored spectacles.
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Angels
Apr 7, 2009 1:28:58 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Apr 7, 2009 1:28:58 GMT -5
This is...starting to get stale.
Do you?
If not, then why would your mentality be any less stagnant than hers?
Thus far you've done nothing but point out that her beliefs, and my beliefs, your beliefs, are all perceptions while at the same time holding a sign up behind your back that ever so subtly hangs above your head, and it reads, "I think i know better".
At this point, what does it matter? It's blatantly obvious KG has other matters on her mind besides, "Lucifer". It is also very obvious that I care very little for Lucifer (That is to say, so you can get an idea of where he stands - that he is less than the bile that escapes from the mouth of a dying dog, in my eyes).
Right or wrong, you are not contributing anything new to the discussion. Yes, we apparently wear rose colored spectacles (though i prefer blue). Yes, we all have our perceptions based on our memories, past experiences (in said memories or in KG's case, the Astral).
So do you. However, until all is said and done and we're all peering about with stupid grins on our faces expecting each other to get cake in the face for having misinterpreted our experiences or whatever....what point is there in trying to say who's right and who is wrong?
Don't speak about the multitudes of perceptions and how no one perception is greater than the other, then turn around and push yours as true.
Am I wrong? What other conclusion can be drawn from this?
What color are your spectacles? After all... You are wearing them. Right?
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Angels
Apr 7, 2009 1:38:11 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 7, 2009 1:38:11 GMT -5
I am merely reading what you are writing, and trying to make logical sense of it. You said:
By giving a negative, and causing a lack, where there was no lack before, you are actually taking away aren't you? Why would taking something away, be a gift. It sounds more like a theft.
Taking away peace and joy would be production of it's opposite. You would be taking peace and leaving conflict. You would be taking joy and giving sorrow... since the absence of peace is conflict, and the absense of joy is sorrow, or at least depression. I do not understand why it would be desirable to God to have depression, sorrow and confict, where before there was peace and Joy. Now maybe I am plugging my own emotions into my perception of God, but really... how would any positive entity, enjoy depression, sorrow and conflict... now Demurge would. Is it possible that the GOD that Lucifer loves and wants fellowship with is really Demurge. He often pretends to be God. He's fooled angels before. He fools humans on a regular basis. At any rate, I don't see why the real God would be pleased with sorrow and conflict.
As for sacrificing Lucifer's own Peace and Joy, and giving those to God... It doesn't work that way, the suffering of others does not give happiness to other entities, unless those entities are malevolent.
AS I said, it has little to do with my perception of God, and more to do with trying to make logical sense out of what you just said. Why would God want to introduce suffering, sadness, and conflict into the world? Why would he want Lucifer to be sad? Why would he want to feel sad himself?
Why would he want to have to witness conflict for the next dozen Millenia? I would suppose that I am much less intelligent than God, but I become bored with the repetitive nature of conflict very quickly. IF God is vastly smarter than me, and I am sure he is, then the inevitable outcome of conflict must be even more obvious to him.
Well if there was nothing but peace and joy before, and Lucifer brought about conflict and sadness, as the opposites of those, then Drama must have come about as a result of that. I admit Drama is my word for the screwy crap that human people do to cause and perpetuate conflict and sadness. I think the actual word I mean is melodrama. Causing melodrama is definitely a form of joy stealing, for humans.
In this physical life, combat is not permitted anymore. Not for individuals anyway. Physical combat is rarely the issue. NO, if someone comes around spreading their drama, you are supposed to listen and try to help, no matter how stupid it all sounds. If you do not wish to participate in the drama you are hard pressed to get them off the phone, or out of your living room effectively without kicking their butts, which just causes more drama. In the end you cannot fight Drama, because by fighting drama, you just become part of even more Drama, but if you try to be supportive during someone's drama you get dragged into it, and then you also become part of the drama. You can't beat drama, you can't join drama, your only chance is to avoid drama like the plague.
Some people experience a lot of Drama in the astral. I really don't. Mostly because I think Drama is stupid, and I manage to avoid it there even more effectively than in the physical. From what you are saying about Lucifer's melodramatic attitude, that may be why we don't hang out. LOL
I see a lot of drama in what you are saying. St. Lucifer of the Mayrter complex, giving up his JOY so that he can give God the gift of stealing his peace. It sounds like so much feminine manipulitive whiney BS. Very much like my friend from the above story, saying "Why don't you return my calls?" One conversation yields the answer to that question very painfully. We never return her calls because her conversation is repetitive, whiney, one sided, and all about her, and how she was supposedly wronged, after sacrificing all for someone else, when in fact she took advantage every way she could, and caused conflict right and left. In short what she says is not the truth, but designed to manipulate... like propaganda. You don't have to be a genius to recognize propaganda and manipulation when you hear it. I mean it helps to know the speaker, but after you listen a while, you start getting the picture either way.
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Angels
Apr 7, 2009 5:34:40 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 7, 2009 5:34:40 GMT -5
I have not once stated that I know more so then her, she has however numerous times stated she does.
You are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing, you have done it nearly every post of yours, such as one of your many statements "I trust the words of some one who was actually there" in regard to the beginning of creation.
Lucifer? I have not spoken of Lucifer since pages ago.
The only one pushing currently is you, I have not stated I was at the beginning of time, I have not stated my words hold more weight over another's purely because I was there at the "big bang" rather then another who was not.
You tell me, after all it is in your shaded perception your seeing those spectacles upon me.
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Angels
Apr 7, 2009 8:07:00 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 7, 2009 8:07:00 GMT -5
Then what the heck are we even talking about?
Who are what are we talking about here? Who is going to burn existance to ash? Who will forever close the door? AND Who is "The one I love?"
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Angels
Apr 7, 2009 13:44:31 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Apr 7, 2009 13:44:31 GMT -5
I was saying how I saw things from my point of view, where as when I did, you would mention that my view was somehow...skewed.
I've been implying that I was around lounging about *before* the big bang, if you're going to use an example, at least get what I was saying correct =P.
But either way, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about now. As I said in my post. It doesn't matter what anyone says anymore, because we won't be able to agree.
Thankfully in my little break, i've been able to take a step back. If you honestly can't see how funny that statement you made is... then maybe...just maybe, your shades are much, much darker than mine.
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Angels
Apr 7, 2009 21:10:10 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 7, 2009 21:10:10 GMT -5
I think the point is that we have come right out and told you our experiences... we tell you WHY we think what we think. We tell you exactly what we think, and we have explained ourselves both to you recently, and in the past on this board where you can read all about it. We have laid out our histories, and our backgrounds, and how that has impacted our feelings.
It isn't that I know more than you, it is that I know why I believe what I believe, and I don't have a clue why you believe what you believe. I assume that you DO know why you think what you think, but you have not told us.
From my POV, without any background, it just defies logic. It is like taking the story of Cinderella from the view point of the Wicked Step mother. Sure anyone could do that. You could say that the wicked step mother was just trying to teach Cinderella responsibility. That she saw potential in the girl, and wanted to force that potential to it's full measure, by being extra hard on her. I could even buy that to a point. However she still wouldn't get a nomination for mother of the year out of me.
Is Cinderella fictional or real? If fictional, how is anyone's opinion of her other than the original writer's valid? The writer said Cinderella's stepmother was wicked, so since her only existance is within the story he wrote, she is wicked. There is no debating it, that is what the story says.
If it is real, then no one but the step mother knows how she feels. We could substitute the book Mommy Dearest, which is a true story about Joan Crawford, by her step daughter. Since this is a true story we could consider the possiblity that the story was unfair and one sided. WE could try to investigate by talking to people who knew them both. We could check the facts, by reading not only that book, but other information about it. Did anyone else see the abuse? Was anyone else abused by Joan Crawford? WE could verify the facts, and the only way to come close to verification is to talk to eye witnesses. Written denials by Joan herself, might be evidence, but those may or may not be credible, since denial would be the only normal reaction to such a story.
Distant historical accounts are harder to investigate, if for some reason the the origional account becomes suspect, but there has to be a real reason to suspect the original account is flawed. I could say that Ivan the terrible wasn't so terrible after all, but then I'd have to say why I thought he wasn't. I could say that Vlad the Impailer was a just and compassionate ruler of his people, and I could actually present a lot of Historical information to support that. I've seen it before. I could find it again and write a pro Vlad account. It is easy to do, but you have to have some evidence.
When it comes to something as far distant as the fall of Lucifer, we have few sources to rely on, all of which amount to visionary experiences. Ancient visionary accounts, are recorded in various ancient and sacred texts. Modern visionary accounts are all over the web, usually on forums like this one, and on people's blogs. They are hard to find, but they can be found, and the creditility of each one has to be sorted with the others. Now I am positive that I have not even scratched the surface of finding accounts of the Fall of Lucifer. Xav may have a bigger collection of them since it is an interest of his.
A conflicting witness could share testimony, but only if he or she could describe what he or she saw, how he or she managed to see it, and exactly what the experience was or is. You have not done that. We have no clue why you are choosing to re write a well known story.
You at first claimed that you didn't believe any of our Bible stories, and that all the characters were all Alegorical... then you infered that you were somehow connected to Lucifer... but only infered, you never said. You have never specifically said why you are so obcessed with this 'fictional' story, if you indeed think it is fiction, and you have taken a lot of artistic licence with the origanal story, if you indeed view it as fiction.... you have entirely re written the original story.
Every time we question you on why you think as you do, you distance yourself, as if it is no big deal, but the next thing you know you are forcing your "Luciferian" opinion... and we do not know why YET.
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Angels
Apr 8, 2009 16:18:42 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 8, 2009 16:18:42 GMT -5
Tell me, what is it that gives Xavrael's words validity in what he says?
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Angels
Apr 8, 2009 17:57:01 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 8, 2009 17:57:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry I thought the above post explained that, but I will try again.
1. I know who Xav is. I have known Xav since he was 17 on line admittedly but still I know him. He has been open about his family, his circumstances, and the way he experiences his memories and visions. While I can get to know new people fairly easily if they give me the chance, I have trouble getting to know people who will not tell me anything.
2. Xav is honest in that he tells me that he believes he is the angel Xavravel. He holds the memories of Xavravel. Now maybe that doesn't win him credibility with everyone, but the fact he tells me his source of knowledge does account for something.
3. I don't believe exactly like Xav does, but I trust him to tell me the truth. I let him tell me what he experiences and I make my own deductions from that. He does the same with me. In essence I don't doubt anyone's visions, or experiences, but I do sometimes question their ability to understand what is happening to them. I question my own ability to interpret experiences at times, but you need to know the experience before you can even begin to figure out what it means. You have not told me about your experiences.
4. I am rarely if never lied to by individuals telling me their experiences. People who wish to tell me of their experiences, tell their them to the best of their ability in hopes that someone else WILL understand. Why would they lie? However I have seen many times when people including myself had to work hard to understand what an experience actually meant. Without any background of the reason you think something, then it isn't a matter of your words it is the absence of them.
5. The story you refer to is well known. It doesn't go the way you tell it at all. You will not state your reasons for thinking the story is different than it has always been told. If I told you the earth was flat, would you believe me? I would hope not. If I told you that Hitler was the good guy, would you believe me? I would hope not. If I had information, or evidence or some other reference to these ideas, maybe you would consider it, but it would take a lot to convince any sane informed modern person that the earth was flat. It is the same with the ideas that you put forth.
6. Even the way you explain him Lucifer isn't my idea of a great guy. Your lucifer is self centered, facinated with delusions of his own power... or maybe you are the one facinated by the delusions of his power. You keep pushing the idea that he is more powerful than our angels. I know our angels, many of them, and I know fallens too... I think that you saying he wants to destroy everything but himself and God is kind of negative. Overall I know enough to know a LOT Of facts that conflict with what you are saying, and you have stated no facts and given no evidence.
7. In general I believe people's honest eye witness accounts, but I do not blindly accept their conclusions... especially if they have not explained why they thing the way they do. I do not always agree with Xav's conclusions either, by the way, but we are not in the habbit of disagreeing in this way. Normally I kind of withhold iron clad conclusions, of my own, and take the iron clad conclusions of others with a grain of salt. People see a lot more than they understand.
8. Lets say we are in a court of law. You come in as a supposed witness, and say, "the defendent is innocent." No other information... is the judge and jury just going to take your word for it? NO. You have to either present what you saw, heard, or otherwise experienced.
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Angels
Apr 8, 2009 19:06:47 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Apr 8, 2009 19:06:47 GMT -5
To point out, I don't care about who is right or who is wrong. What I'm mentioning at this point is that every time we've expressed our opinions (you, KG, Me), we suddenly are wearing, "Rose colored spectacles" while you on the other hand, do no believe you have them, Nevermind the fact that you've been constantly talking about how everyone has their own perspective, their own lenses and yet, you seemingly believe that you are devoid of any such perceptions, these...metaphorical "spectacles". So what makes *your* perception correct? What gives *your* perception more weight? What grants *you* freedom from said spectacles? Don't answer those questions. At this point it doesn't matter. My point is that while you ask us these questions and we explain our sides, you explain yours and attempt to guide the light of truth over your own head with little phrases and such. I've not once said you were wrong. I *have* said that I didn't agree with you. You haven't extended that same courtesy .
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Angels
Apr 8, 2009 20:43:59 GMT -5
Post by seamus on Apr 8, 2009 20:43:59 GMT -5
y'alll are making me laugh. You can frame existence in any of a million ways, and it's still there. Cassiel, do you really, REALLY think that YOU have the power to abrogate all possibility of future (we're talking eternity-framed time here) existence? I don't think anyone does. Because as we have seen, we aren't really in control, even of ourselves. Fate has a much stronger grip on us than we like to admit. There's a good reason for it; so that none are lost, for all are precious beyond measure. I, too, was around before the big bang, or at least, i was given the memories of one who was. What I know for certain is that we did what we did without thought of consequence. We didn't worry about who would get hurt, because there is only ourselves to hurt. We volunteered for this dream, because let's face it, eternity in the cosmic egg may be blissful, but there's not a lot of variety there. So, variety being the spice of life, one part of the monad began to look outward from the source. I remember this as if it were yesterday. Perhaps I knew you in there, Xavrael. I am too wrapped up in a personality at present to know who I truly am. As it looked outward, it saw darkness, and wished to share its light with the darkness. It felt sorry for the emptiness, and wanted to fill it. In and out, in and out it moved again and again. The unity was making love to itself. Moments (eons?) later, the whole thing exploded in pulsating waves of release. Unfathomable ages later, the complexification and delving into the richness of existence began. I don't remember much more than that up until my birth in this life. The veil is still too strong on me Anyway, i didn't mean to get too far off topic. Archetypal ramblings My point being, this is a joint project and will remain so. As for any beings who are brave enough to break free from their fate, they are immortal, and ultimately independent. Perhaps they can create their own emanations. Somehow i think they can. So they would hardly be lonely. Lucifer may or may not be in this state. But someone provided the inspiration for the Grateful Dead song, "Ship of Fools" ...Saw your first ship sink and drown From rocking of the boat. All who could not sink or swim Were just left there to float.... This song is from the point of view of such a one, and the song ends with the sentiment that existence is not only futile but miserable and regrettable. I don't share that sentiment, but i empathize with the one who feels it. He has gone farther than his own joy would carry him. I hope he finds it. Seamus
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