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Angels
Apr 8, 2009 21:25:20 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 8, 2009 21:25:20 GMT -5
I have not once stated my perception is the right perception, that my perception is the only perception.
So please do quote correctly as you have so asked others to do of you.
Have I ever said I do not wear colored spectacles? No, in fact you could quote me prior pages, I said all have a shaped perception.
The question was aimed at KG, she says I do not provide any story to back my words to give them validity. So I ask KG what makes your words Xavrael valid, from the fact that you believe you were around when existence was made? You and many others, such as seamus believe that.
So if the same hand is extended to all here, then for my words to be valid, I could say along the lines of "I was the first individual fashioned before all existence, I was the very fire that brought forth the first dawn and illuminated all thought and consciousness, the spark which was brought forth from the very hand of God before all others were even pondered " so yes I was there before everyone and all except for God who fashioned me.
So tell me KG what historical text back what Xavrael has said of his history and validity of his words? The only thing mentioned has been feelings. Well then since no ones feelings are greater then any others, my words are just as valid as his, guess I was there before all.
Also, please do quote when I have directly stated that anything anyone on this board has said was Wrong, incorrect. Not that I disagreed with it, or had a different perception, or my experiences which shape what I saw, feel and see are different?
Or if your going to count what I said as labeling another as plainly wrong and that my perception is "right", then you both have done the exact same thing.
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Angels
Apr 9, 2009 1:23:52 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 9, 2009 1:23:52 GMT -5
Xav is not badgering me to believe him. He never has and is not likely to. He knows what he remembers, and he has no doubt that it is true. My believing him is irrelivant to him.
I know what I know, and his believing me is irrelivant to me. We do not agree on Demurge, I don't think... unless he has changed his mind, but that is not an issue because we do not debate it. We respect each other enough not to question what the other has experienced.
He knows in his heart that he is right, and I sense that. Do I know that Xav correctly understands everything he remembers? I do not know that for sure, but I do know that Xav believes what he is saying. He is not lying to us or making this up for shits and giggles. He believes it to be true, he remembers it and experienced it on some level.
Xav and I are not looking for validity from each other. We are friends. We apprecaite each other's stories, and we see them, as raw data, to be processed in our own way. We both have heard many eye witness accounts of things, from people that we know and trust to tell us what they saw.
To use the example of court again. Witnesses tell what they have seen and heard. Any interpretation they make is not evidence. They have a right to state their interpretation, but any fan of murder mysteries knows that it is the sum and total of all the evidence when taken together that makes a conclusion. I have heard a lot of evidence, from various sources, including the Bible that match up more or less with what Xav says he saw. I have seen little conflicting evidence of that, so I lean towards believing Xav's interpretation of what he saw, but because he told me what he saw, I am also free to look at each element subjectively if there is new and contradictory information. Unlike a jury trial though, with a single time for deliberation, my mental jury can stay out as long as they like, reach a tentitive verdict, and then years later reach a different conclusion, and all the conclusion means is my opinion... and my opinion is really irrelivant to Xav... and to most people probably. LOL
But you, Cassiel said, on January 1.
And also
And again:
Either it is a case similar to Peter denying Christ 3 times even though he did know him, or you really do not believe in Lucifer at all. Thus if this is a true representation of what you believe, the situation is totally different.
You are saying that you do not believe Lucifer exists, and yet you argue that you know how he feels... that just doesn't even make sense.
Unlike Xav, you clamor to get us to accept what you are saying. Xav could care less whether I believe what he is saying because in his mind he knows it to be true. By your own admission you do not believe what you are saying. If you do not believe in the existance of Lucifer, then how could you be telling the truth about him?
Over the years, Xav has told me a good bit about his memories of his battles with Lucifer, and his followers. I have also heard other accounts of this war, and they match. It also matches with the bible, if you believe that Lucifer is Satan, or the Devil... "Behold I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven." for one... and, Revelation 12:9"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
there are others and I can look them up if you like, but for the sake of time, I will say that Xav's view of Lucifer/Satan is fairly mainstream Christian, and backed up by scriptures. I have never found the bible to be untrue, though I have noted some conspicuious omissions that are found in other texts.
You refered to my mother as an alegory... does that count? LOL
You have not said that your perception is right, but you continue to argue on one hand that Lucifer is all powerful, and able to kick all our butts, and even Michael... how can an alegory beat up another alegory... not that I think they are allegories, but you said you believed that.. so tell me is this like a chicken fight, or a dog fight? Do we throw down our money, and bet our allegory can whip your allegory? LOL
The main difference I see is that unless you have changed your mind since earlier in the year, this is all just so much fiction to you. You neither believe it, nor have you claimed to, yet you give this extatic speach, about how powerful Lucifer is, as if you greatly adimire him. It makes no sense at all. Either you believe in Lucifer or you don't. If your lucifer is just the way you interpret what you consider a fairy tale, then I don't see how it would even matter to you.
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Angels
Apr 9, 2009 2:41:34 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 9, 2009 2:41:34 GMT -5
I wish I could say the same that you are not badgering, but if I did, I would be lying.
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Angels
Apr 9, 2009 2:42:00 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 9, 2009 2:42:00 GMT -5
Is KG badgering me to believe her about her points of view? All depends on the one reading her throughly passionate responses which delve off into their own stories quite often, which I do so respect for she wouldn't be putting her heart and experiences into her words if she was not trying to convince some one.
I know what I know, and your believing me is irrelevant to me. We do not agree on Existence, I think...unless you have changed your mind, but that is not an issue even though we debate it. We respect one another enough so that we may question what one another has experienced to learn and put the pieces together, otherwise we would be quite skewed with our experiences and knowledge unquestioned.
Cassiel knows in her heart that she is right, and I sense that. Do I know that Cassiel correctly understands everything she knows? I do not know that for sure, but I do know that Cassiel believes what she is saying. She is not lying to us or making this up for shits and giggles. She believes it to be true, she remembers and experiences on different levels.
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Angels
Apr 9, 2009 10:43:23 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 9, 2009 10:43:23 GMT -5
Cassiel,
I am sorry if you feel badgered. IT was not my intention, but I have gotten what seems to be conflicting information from you, and you continue to push your opinion which to me conflicts with your other opinion that you stated earlier.
I am just trying, mostly to figure out what you are talking about. If Xav were unclear, or if he were speaking of new information that I did not understand I would ask questions, and push for details from him. I would want him to make logical sense, and if he could not, I'd ask him to break down his experiences and give them to me in some moment by moment re-cap of the experience itself.
I have heard many views on the nature of existance. I know how I experience it, but I also know that everyone does not experience reality in the same way. It is either a matter of perception or a matter of alternative realities, and I have concidered the possiblity of that. I have considered that there are many alternate ways that people legitamately experience reality... and that much is obvious. What is real? I think it is all real, on different levels, and as for the ultimate reality... I don't think there is one single way for a human being on this earth to experience reality. Some see it in merely physical terms. Others see it as psy energy, and still others see it as an entity based reality. I tend to be entity based, but also I see the spirits and energies of one being impacting another, like a minor control. There are many people who see it as I do, and there are also many who don't. To a degree I can see things in a lot of different ways myself so I kind of know there is a wide range of looking at things.
I also know that in addition to actual entities some people have clones and egrigores of entities in their minds. I'll give you an example.
My physical mother, has an egrigorical form that lives in my psyche, though I have tried to banish it, with some success, it is still there sometimes. It appears to be my mother at the age of about 35 or 40. and it bosses me, yells at me, and acts as a false conscience. If I do something my mother would disapprove of. I hear her saying, "That's Not NICE!!!" Now my mother is overweight, and has been most of my life, but this thing is grossly overweight. It is huge, and it puffs up like a toad, and corrects me sternly. It is very very annoying, but it is my own creation. It exists as a memory that has taken form. IT is not to be confused with my real mother, who is in her seventies, nor is it her soul, which is still young and beautiful. It is my concept of her. She doens't control it, I do. It is not a fully formed person even, it is just a voice in my head, with a form that is the way I remember my mother. It isn't REAL, but it annoys the heck out of me even so.
People have things like that. They are our concepts of things, and not the real thing. I could channel my self made mother image if I wished. I wouldn't want to, but since I hear it, I could certainly let it speak through me. She IS an alegory. She is not herself. She is part of my subconscious mind. In this way, my mother exists, and I am sure she also had an exitance in my father's mind, and my grand mother's mind, and it is likely that those three entities, none of which are my mother were all vastly different from each other. WE each saw my mother in ways that were completely different from each other, and so our VIEW of a real person we know is different, and the entity I created in my subconscious is not her, it is only my childhood view of her, the huge woman who made me feel guilty all the time. My mother was not that person to anyone but me. Does that make sense?
Oh. You are speaking of yourself in the third person... Gary does that when he types or speaks through me. It makes me seem kind of strange when that happens. Is someone speaking through you? Or is it just in a way of speaking...
Anyway I just do not understand. If Lucifer does not exist to you, then how can you have an opinion of him. How can you believe what you are saying about Lucifer when you say you don't believe in the one you are talking about?
I don't care if you believe me. I am trying to understand what you are saying, and trying to clarify what I am saying. Also I tend to type things just for the sake of throwing raw information out there that seems related. I did the same with my daughters. I told them my entire life experience EVERYTHING. I told them things most mom's would have hidden. Why? Because there were things that happened that I drew conclusions from, but I wanted to share the information raw, so they could draw their own conclusions... mine could have been faulty. I also wanted them to know WHY I thought the way I did. IF one makes statements of fact about things that are not clearly factual they should provide supporting evidence... or at least the vision or thought process that lead them to that conclusion. That is what is missing from your story.
WHY do you think this? That is all I really want to know.
It isn't a matter of the idea that you Cassiel, are making things up. IT is a matter of you seeming to claim you are making it up. If Lucifer does not exist... then how can you make any sort of statement about him with any certainty at all beyond the original story?
I will ask again, are you channeling your posts? If so that would mean that YOU aren't lying, or telling the truth, merely relaying a message from some third party. When I channel Gary, I believe him, but I also know that he doesn't know everything. He is no more omnicient than I am... which is to say he is not omnicient. LOL
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Angels
Apr 9, 2009 14:52:05 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 9, 2009 14:52:05 GMT -5
I just remembered something. A very long time ago on another forum a kid told a very strange tale about Lucifer, and Michael... and there was a third entity. I do not remember who that was, but at any rate. He said that his world was another planet... and I don't doubt that. I know that there are astral planets... I have no idea where they are located. They could be in outer space, or they could be dust specks on someone's coffee table for all I know, but when you are on them it is obvious they are planets.
According to this kid's story on his home world, Lucifer and Michael were friends and allies. Someone else was playing the villian in this story, and Lucifer and Michael were working together to put down some sort of invasion. I don't remember all the details, but I sensed that he was telling the truth... and that this was either some alternate reality or perhaps some archetypical mental process on his part.
Anyway it was as if no fall had ever occured in that preticular world or alternate reality. I also know that all of us are living on many different planes at one time... and we are not always the same exactly in each place. I do not understand the boy's story, but he was telling the truth. Again this is just raw data. I do not know what to make of it exactly. It was just his experience.
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Angels
Apr 15, 2009 23:16:38 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 15, 2009 23:16:38 GMT -5
Individuals walking all throughout this world, wolves in sheep's clothing, sheep in wolves clothing, the difference is the same.
As the murderers descend upon the people so they cry and despair, but lo and behold arise their saviors clad in black and white, the people rejoice and cheer for the blood shed that follows.
The patterns spiraling throughout every level of existence, repeating upon every layer, and as you step further back with each step taking in the grandiose picture at hand, you begin to see a most awe inspiring sight.
Name after name written across every layer, every particle, every molecule, every cork, to the very icing of the cake itself, society.
A sociopath is defined as one who has no love for his fellow man, but what man and monster is, is decided by the people who are despairing and rejoicing for the murderers and heroes.
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Angels
Apr 16, 2009 10:01:43 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 16, 2009 10:01:43 GMT -5
Oh Yes, you will not get any argument from me on that. It is very very true. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. One person's butcher is another person's hero, and even at the top, many leaders of nations have been cast as both messianic figure and anti christ. The pattern however is often distorted by revisionists. People litterally re-write history to suit themselves, and they do it on a regular basis. For example most Americans view Lincoln as a great liberator of the people, but for those of us who look at it without blinders, the only liberty found in Lincoln was the freedom to die. www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo7.htmlSlaves and masters, indians, freed men and the poor maipulated yankee, all suffered the same fate at his command. He was a dealer in death not life. For the times, and technology available, he killed an amazing number of people, many of them black, and native American and when the smoke cleared, no one was free to do anything but starve. He nearly distroyed this nation while claiming to unite and free it. For Grant and Sherman, the bloody civil war marked only a short break from slaughtering Native Americans. Negotiations and a workable plan to restructure the Southern economy would have been much preferable to the bloody war which in the end did not free most of the slaves for another hundred years. Slavery was re-established under the name of share cropping, and did not truely end until the nineteen sixties in the south. The only difference was that their fields and homes were burned, and there was no food for anyone for a while. Why? Because the civil war offered no solution, and no alternative to the system already in place. Revisionism would be funny if it were not so sad. Americans scoff at the many Germans who still insist the Holocaust was just so much Zionist propaganda. They believe that Hitler was framed, and the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Jehovia wittnesses, gays, and other various people Nazis did not like were not murdered in cold blood... I do not know how they explain the disappearance of these people though. Also funny is the fact that Jewish people would for some reason like for us to forget that they were not the only ones genocided by Hitler. The attack on the Gypsies was much more effective. Following WWII they were near extinction. Even today Revisionism is at work. Recently US history books were re written, and the old ones deemed outdated. All of history just magically changed, because it was felt that Women, and racial minorities needed more heros. History was re-written in an attempt to balance out the overwhelming majority of entries about white males, by adding stories about women and minorities. That is cute, but it merely attempts to disguise the fact that women and minorities were repressed, and controled during those times. It also just fruther distorts a story that has already been convoluted. There is a bible quote that says, "Every man is righteous, (or justified) in his own eyes." It is very true. The Nazis felt quite justified in killing the Jews whom they felt were oppressing them financially, and the Gypsies whom they felt were thieves and bums. The typical southern planter, felt he was protecting and sheltering his slaves. They saw it in much the same way as if someone came to free their housepets and small children, by turning them out into the snow. Lincoln felt compassion for abused slaves coming north, but had no idea that some slaves were content with their lot in life, and willingly served in the Confederate army protecting their families. They considered their owners more like brothers, and the northern armies they saw as cruel and ruthless invaders. Lincoln himself did not consider blacks human, any more than he did the Native Americans, but he felt compassion for the blacks, while he apparently felt none for the Native Americans. He ordered their genocide, immediately following the civil war. www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo40.htmlOf course these articles I have posted are themselves slanted... so what is the truth? Truth when it comes to politics and history is a very illusive thing. It is personal, and not always rational. We see that demurgian factionalism spread through it all. Our brother is more important than our enemy's brother. His suffering is in no way equal to our suffering. The enemy would kill us if we did not kill him first. His suffering and death is of little consequence to us, while those of our own kind are of greater importance. It is about those we know, vs. those we don't know, and in the human mind you know who is most important. It is about fear of people who are different than us. Those who are not our brothers, vs. Our bretheren. In human psychology those whom are our kin are more important than anyone else. Those people we know and like are more important than those we personally do not like. Those people whom we know at all are more important than those we don't know. Those people whom we are somehow similar to, are more important than those we are different from, and distant people from foreign lands are not important at all. Most importantly, we feel and instinctive urgency to inialate those whom we fear and see as threat to our family and friends. Every now and then, a figure arises who knows how to effectively stir that us and them mentality which is inherant to us all. I call it demurgian thinking, because his spirit is the catalist in my opinion for this base instinct IMO... butwhether or not you believe that, there is definitely an insanity, a spirit of fear, that comes over people when they are spured to feel threatened. This insane spirit of fear is the cornerstone of propaganda. That fear, stirs and conflicts with a type of pride, that is called patriotism, and yields nothing but war, destruction, suffering and genocide in its path. Do these charasmatic figures believe their own propaganda? I have often wondered... I know that for some it is merely a vehicle, but as to a ratio, and to what degree it is truely felt by the leader of the witch hunt, I do not know. I do know that more often than not it seems the instigators of witch hunts and genocides have their own agendas, and aulterior motivations. Whether they believe their own hype or not, our leaders know how to trigger a violent reaction in others. They use this spirit of fear, coupled with self righteous pride and predjudice. Their opponents and adversaries use it. We all fall prey to it at times. It is a double standard that we are all equally guilty of at times. Even those of us who are educated enough to understand the force of propaganda, sometimes fall prey to it. Look at the Repubs and the Demos. Now personally I am a Democrat, but I see how at times each group just picks and opposing side just to be different... and to motivate off beat little faction groups with their spiel. In my view which is admittedly biased, but serves as a valid example, Repubs win elections on the backs of the Religious Right and the NRA while caring only for the very rich and their agendas. If they were honest, and their candidates just came out and said. "WE represent the rights of the wealthy to trample the poor and middle class underfoot, con you out of your assets, and make sure that every dime ends up in a rich man's bank account while you grovel for the opportunity to be their house servants," none of us would vote for them. IF they admitted that they cared nothing about prayer in schools, the lives of unborn children, or the spreading of the Gospel throughout the world... and if they admitted that they really wish we didn't have guns, but they were smart enough to dupe the Demo's into the unpopular cause of disarming us, only five percent of the population would be Republican, because only five percent of us qualify as being very rich. The Demos are just as bad. Do you think Demos want Gay marriage? Do you think they care about pro choice, except that it decreases the population without outright killing children and adults? The Repubs don't mind doing that... killing and starving out children and adults... They prefer war and economic depriviation as ways to reduce the population. The new one shooting hurricane victims, proved unpopular, so maybe they won't try that again for a while. The Demos however have a long list of BS that they pay lip service to though, just like the republicans. They both want power, Demos pander to the populists who want everyone to have a fair chance. They espouce the rights of all, except the very rich which populists love to hate anyway. They seek to create a bold stimulated economy where money moves, instead of stagnating in a few deep pockets. They probably have their reasons for that, which are also self serving, but those motives also serve the interests of the poor and working class which most of us are. At the same time they sometimes take our protections during times of prosperity. Then when the Repubs get their way, and we need those protections. Clinton took away the welfare safety net, because it was NOT needed during his reign in the light of proparity and massive job creation. Likewise in times of economic prosperity, crime is less and guns are not as likely to seem needed. In a way they are just playing good cop bad cop, or else playing into each other's hand. The use of propaganda is rampant on both sides. We will not soon forget the fear that Bush attempted to stir up with his axis of evil speach, in the wake of 9/11. My mood was still that of bemused contempt though. I was just supprised it wasn't domestic terrorism. There is a sort of immunity we get to the other party's propaganda, which may be all that saves the US from utter insanity. In the dark ages there was no such immunity, and no wonder the people fell for all those inquisitions, crusades and witch hunts. There was no strong opposing force. Only the one Catholic Church, and the Monarchs who were either in agreement with, or afraid of it. No one could stand against Catholicism in those days. All opposition was crushed. Now you know that the Church frequently targeted the wealthy, the land holders, and anyone else who perhaps had a possiblity of rising to power, or who owned something they wanted. Also though, you have to wonder if some of them were not sincere in their fear of paganism, heracy, and witchcraft. Whatever their original motivation may have been though the tactics they used were henious, barbaric and hardly the behavior one would expect from men of God. Why? Because at that point they were no longer serving God, but rather a spirit of a much less benevolent nature... obviously. They as zealots fell prey to kinky sadistic tortures, self mutilation, bizzare rituals, genocide, murder, bribery, duplicity, lies, extreme cruelty even to animals, and obvious sadism. Through it all they were self righteous, and that is the true spirit of Anti-Christ/Demurge IMO but at any rate what we are talking about. The ability of someone to feel justified at obvious henious black sin. Very very true. In history very few people act... most of them just react. The ones who act stand out as more murderous, or most heroic, depending on whom your ancestors were listening to, and spured by, when they committed there most henious, but mearly reactionary atrocities. In incarnate human beings is a little trigger mechanism, that spurs when we feel threatened. It makes us feel joy (at the pain and death of a percieved enemy) when we should feel sorrow. It makes us hate people we don't even know, when if we knew them we would love them as brothers. People become over zealous in blood lust, because of propaganda which is specifically designed to hit that trigger very solidly. Perhaps a sociopath is merely someone who does not feel an attachment to anyone. Possibly they have felt isolated, and shut off from the world. (People can feel alone in a crowd, it can be an attitude as much as a circumstance.) They do not feel compassion for their bretheren, because in their minds they have no bretheren. If you add self loathing to that, and someone who percieves themselves as friendless might feel self loathing. Then it only takes a bit of parinoia to drive them to murder suicide or at the very least, anti social, and self debasing behavior. They would be extremely succeptable to that propaganda as well. They would easily feel even the most subtle hint that mankind is evil and corrupt and had to be destroyed. War is also sociopathic, so is persecution, genocide, predjudice, descrimination, and taking pleasure in the pain and defeat of others. Just because more people are involved does not justify it. Just because we win doesn't justify it. Sometimes though we can instead of turning upon the nameless masses of inocents we can strike the very source of the problem. There is usually a human leader, and always there is a spiritual force which causes the uprising of these emotions on both sides. To strike that energic force and quell it with peace and love through our actions, our attitudes, our prayers, and our spiritual force is the only way to even come close to avoiding getting caught up in this. We as humans have to rise above the propaganda and see the humanity on both sides. We have to distinguish perpetrator from victim, and also to see what our leaders did to antagonize the other side against us. We have to not only vote, but be accountable for our votes, and the actions of those we voted for. We have to be willing to disregard their propaganda and search for the truth.
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Angels
Apr 27, 2009 17:51:15 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 27, 2009 17:51:15 GMT -5
I'm still curious, who will overcome who in confrontation, Michael and his associates, Lucifer and his associates, or any other group.
For all groups are headed by a "leader", all the groups moving and growing on this world, in this physical world. They will meet and cross paths eventually, and when they do so I am curious as to who will emerge and who will sink.
After all, many are going to be eliminated from this physical plane, who will lose their physical host, body, which group, individuals shall be the last to remain.
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Angels
Apr 27, 2009 20:25:42 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 27, 2009 20:25:42 GMT -5
First of all look what I found. www.yeziditruth.org/yezidi_scripturesThis is the sacred text of the Kerdish people, who follow the Yazidi religion... a rare find though I don't know how accurate this translation is. It is still very interesting, and this from people who worship a statue of a peac**k, which they keep hidden in a cave, and wrapped in a red cloth. Still their religion is facinating. I got curious as to why everyone hates the Kerds. They keep getting genocided, and they seem like nice enough folks.. and very attractive looking so I wondered why the dislike. I did some research turns out their diety...Melek Taus, represented by the form of a peac**k is often associated withSatan/Lucifer/Demurge. His name is the same as what the Muslims call Satan. His story is very similar to both Lucifer's and Demurge's and is the only document that combines the idea of both, creator of material existance, and the jealousy of man, which he himself formed from dust. Their beliefs have been mixed with many sources, but the core beliefs are very ancient. I think they may be decendents of the people of Nenivia. As I said IDK if they are correct but the story is interesting. The Muslims hate them and consider them devil worshipers. They have mystic practices, which they perform in caves or man made cave like structures which are dark and without windows. At any rate they are isolationists and do not like mingling with outsiders. They try to remain racially and culturally pure. They believe that they are decendents of Adam but not of Eve. That is strange, but they think that Adam mixed his seed with an angelic creature refered to as a Houri, and incubated it in a jar. The Houri are like the virgins the Muslims go on about, and are basically disincarnate souls in heaven/paradise where they are perfect... healed of old age, and the ravages of disease and childbirth... made re-virgin, and perpetually virgin as long as they are there, but the Yezidi believe in reincarnation... so I guess... well I agree with them on that part. I believe in both heaven and reincarnation. I think we exist both in heaven and on earth, though most people only become aware of this when they are at or near the point of death. Like I said I think I sort of find common ground with the Yazidi there, as nearly as I understand their beliefs. The rest is too new to me to really form an opinion, but it is interesting. Back when I was in church... God, I know I was under 18, but older than 13, I got a good discription of that event. The various sides of human kind are at war... something I gather we shouldn't be bothered with on a physical level. The whole Armegedon senerio... Jesus comes swooping out of the sky riding a winged white horse, with the angelic hosts and disincarnate human Christian souls behind him, all mounted on winged angel horses. There was even a series of paintings done by an excelent artist. I love paintings with horses, and these were perfect. Less pretty was the revelations description of what happens to the human combatants below. They too are on horseback for some reason... and the blood goes up to the horses' bridals. IDK why all the horses but since I love equestrian art... well the picture is distressing, but still beautiful. Anyway the inferance is that all the combatants on the face of the earth will die... then they will be judged. The great white throne judgment. I haven't seriously thought about your question since that time, but I think it is because I so completely accepted that idea as fact... and I love the way those paintings looked too. I'll bet on that outcome. Why? Because it is pretty. LOL Also I have seen angel horses. They look like pegasis, but are a different species. They are going to look so cool. Revelations is a very confusing book, and I an not too clear on what it all means but the final outcome is clear. Jesus wins. I buy into that part completely. The only ones to survive physically will be the ones who are NOT on that battlefield. According to the Revelations... and the weird interpretations I am familiar with... and the ones I have decoded myself. There will be 144,000 male virgin Jews hiding out at Petra. They will survive physically... don't know if anyone else makes it or not, but logically if Petra is safe, then anyone who stays home and minds their own business, and hasn't been killed by the anti-christ or all the other weird stuff that happens, should be OK. Death thouth isn't really death. WE are talking physical death. Physical death means very little in this senerio. The white throne judgment will be the second death for many... at least that was what I was told. IDK... I find Revelations to be pretty criptic, symbolic, and the only way I could explain this happening in the physical would be if the veil fell. Kim
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Angels
Apr 27, 2009 20:34:18 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 27, 2009 20:34:18 GMT -5
That is your belief, but it does not in anyway answer who will die physically, Michael, Lucifer, or any other and in what order.
Do you know? No you do not, it is merely curiosity playing out in hypothetical situations.
You believe 144,000 virgins will survive, but tell me what are virgins? What defines who is and who is not a virgin? It is merely a statement, also 144,00 what? Individuals, masses, it is open ended and only shaped by your interpretation of it.
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Angels
Apr 28, 2009 10:34:43 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 28, 2009 10:34:43 GMT -5
I can tell you what I believe, based on what I have read. I can also tell you what I have read that I have no preticular interest or belief in. From what I read in Revelation I interpreted that it meant most of the people, and certainly the leaders on the battle field will still be alive and then suddenly die... together. I don't really see what difference order of death would make, but I think they die within seconds of each other, at least according to the book of Revelations... and past that I really don't know. It is not a question I put much research into. I do not know if Michael or Lucifer are incarnate, but even if they are the fight I am interested in is not a physical one. I would suspect that the Battle Michael is interested in is not a physical one either. I'd be very suprised if he showed up on a physical battle field like that, or Lucifer either for that matter. What if Lucifer and Michael are not incarnate at the time of the battle? What if they are babies in a day care center? What if they are 75 years old and in a rest home? What if one is 75 and the other three years old? What then? I really don't think this is going to happen... bottom line. Lucifer and Michael are too smart to fight physically... knowing that would serve no purpose whatsoever. They may be in on manipulating people to fight for them, but even that... what is the point? I have very little curiosity in that area, and that is probably the reason I have grasped the first explaination given to me on the subject. I have confidence in JC, and don't feel called to enter physical battle in the middle east... and if it is in this lifetime, I'll be one of those much too old to fight physically anyway. That is a very good question. I don't know what Virgin means exactly in the bible. The bible usually uses virgin to describe young women, but Revelations says that these men will not be poluted with women, so I guess in this case it is litteral, either in the sense they haven't been with woman at all, or that they were not poluted by the experience... I'm no virgin, but I don't hold to the belief I poluted anybody... LOL it is hard for me to think in the terms of the writer of this. I really consider it to be a demurgian type of outlook... unless it is talking about some kind of VD they don't have... but that is what it says. It does say that they will be male and jewish, and not poluted with women. There could however be women with them that are not counted in the number of 144,000 often the bible only counts men, even if women are also present, both in old and new testiment. It would say 144,000 men and also women and children. That is kind of distasteful, and not very accurate way to count IMO, but that is typical thinking in bibilical times. I have wondered what virgin meant in the bible. The Catholics put a lot of stock in the fact that Mary was a perpetual virgin... no matter how many kids she had after Jesus, and despite her happy marriage with Joseph, she is said to regenerate her virginity... I don't have a clue where this idea came from, but that is a belief. Some people translate the word virgin to mean young woman. The Muslim scriptures are very clear that they mean houri in some cases, young woman who has a perfect body, and beautiful eyes. No sags no bags no celulite... this is a spiritual condition in paradise and not seen often outside of it. In heaven people do look better... as for physical virgins, I can't figure out if they mean without sex always, or just pretty and don't look like they've had kids. If the Revelations verse it says the men were not poluted with women. It also means over 13, the age of Jewish man hood. IF that means litterally they never had sex, I don't know where one is going to find 144,000 male virgin jews all in one place. The Jehovah's witnesses, believe there will only be 144,000 people who go to heaven, and the rest will stay alive here. This is a total misinterpretation of the scriptures. It ignores what the bible says entirely... probably because it is a very confusing passage, but they have it backwards. I've always believed that we will just have to wait and see on most of this prophecy, because it is very criptic. I am not one of those people who have to be right on the interpretation... but I do think Jesus will win the war, and bring it to a very sudden end. As for the details, I don't know for sure. I do think the battle is going on NOW in the spiritual realm... well maybe not right now, but in general there are frequent battles in the astral, and spiritual worlds, and we are at war in the middle east right now. Honestly I think any physical wars will be between countries, and just as spiritually meaningless and stupid as the one we are in now. It will be a war over territory, and oil, and domination of one nation over another, not a squaring off of spiritual forces. The anti-christ (demurge) will be a force which works within them all, and drives them into battle, just like always, only worse. Each side will be full of patriotism, and other self righteous notions, but it will not be a war of real spiritual import or a right side and a wrong side, just more human stupidity being manipulated by the anti-christ, who has his fingers in everybody's brain, making them fight each other over natural differences. They will still be fighting for the spoils. I suspect the Muslim nations, the Jews, the Comunists, and the non comunist countries will have WWIII, in the middle east. I have little interest in any side of this from a spiritual POV. All sides will be equally wrong, and equally dead when it is over. Spiritual wars fought in the physical are always misguided, and based in propaganda. The Crusades, and Jehad, and the USA's distaste for communism, and such are just Demurge's way of killing us off for his entertainment. Governments such as the Nazi's and various totalitiarian police states of both communist and repubic states, are equally evil. None of these are righteous causes, but only the manipulations of the Anti-christ spirit. Now if we are talking about the fall of the veil... well I think that depends on when the veil falls... if soon the 'dark' side will have more of an edge now than later. Not all darkness is a bad thing, and not all light is a good thing, but the darkness was on the rise out there. Unnatural darkness and fog... which did seem like a bad thing, or at least hard on us light beings. I really think that timing is everything with the fall of the veil. Slight edge does not mean victory though. I believe that what is right will pervail in the end. As to who is right... well that goes back to my belief in Jesus... but I am not saying others might not be right too. I think in the very end it will be reconciliation, but I have no idea that will happen in the next thousand years.
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Angels
Apr 30, 2009 0:46:00 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Apr 30, 2009 0:46:00 GMT -5
While the individuals of this world frolic to and fro throughout reality, dancing with one another in relationships composed of strings and foundations made of tinfoil.
I am here, watching, as the shadows and lights move all about, ever growing, ever fading.
The very souls of this world are blind to the workings of the infinite layers of existence and oblivion which are constantly flowing every moment.
Everyone caught up in the temporary, chasing after happiness, drowning them selves in dellusion and fantasy, self created illusion bolstered by one another in their desperate search for completion.
But no Kg...
I see, perceive what others do not, as well as what others do.
And I walk upon all realities, as dreams and reality meld in a vicious ocean of shadows ever swirling about the source of all light.
For I am the Radiant Dawn
And all reality shall burn before within the infinite Will which flows forth.
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Angels
Apr 30, 2009 18:09:47 GMT -5
Post by KG on Apr 30, 2009 18:09:47 GMT -5
This is nice and very poetic, but personally I think there is a lot to be said for the occasional frolic! You are young. Live your life. You can still be watchful. It's like chewing gum and walking. It can be done, especially when you are young, and mentally flexible.
Delusion and fantasy serve a purpose, they are the soft pillow we fall on when we slip off the slippery slopes of truth seeking. Sometimes we don't even realize we have fallen, because we land so softly. I think that if anyone who seeks truth, believes they have never taken that fall, they are more deluded than most of us.
If it were not for the occasional fantasy or delusion the pure truth would drive us all mad much more quickly than it does. Often times the fantasy is closer to the truth, than we could ever come by a straight assent up that slippery slope also... fantasy is often symbolic of great truth, and sometimes it just is the truth... hidden there in our subconscious waiting for us to dream.
The truth sometimes hurts, but it doesn't have to be painful all the time. Sometimes the lies hurt too... so you can't tell fact from fiction by that alone. There is beauty in truth, and beauty in fantasy, there is even beauty in lies sometimes. The truth is relative, and often subjective... slippery always.
If your not careful, you'll end up crazy like me before your time, and not have nearly as many fun experiences to reflect on in your premature senility as I do to. It's funny, my father told me when I was 12 that if I kept reading, praying and meditating so much, I'd end up going crazy. Thank God my young adult years gave me a much needed perspective. Fun, the physical experience of companionship, is completely compatiable with enlightenment... and in fact without it, enlightenment is but a bleak and empty metaphor for nothing.
Enlightenment for the western mind drives you to the brink, and sometimes beyond... and most of us end up more crazy than wise... all that is left is to say you had fun on the way... don't cheat yourself out of that.
Yep, been there done that and bought all their T-shirts, but I am sure they restocked. LOL Be careful. The swirling makes you dizzy and it doesn't always wear off. Truth is slippery, but Sanity is even moreso. If you keep going you have to let go eventually... and I suspect you already have. There is little use in pretending you haven't.
Yes... but cheer up. Do you think that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, because he didn't know... didn't understand? Of course he knew, and of course he understood. He comprehended it to the depths of his soul, and that is why he picked up his violin. It was not a dreary funeral durge I am sure that he played that night. No it was something with a tempo, something that played forth in madness, because only in madness could he still find joy. If you look there is great joy in madness... and great sorrow in taking it all so seriously. Life is fleeting, and the fun part of it all the more so.
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Angels
May 3, 2009 16:33:46 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on May 3, 2009 16:33:46 GMT -5
Sanity is relative to the environment in which you are interacting.
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