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Lucifer
Sept 6, 2010 10:15:24 GMT -5
Post by ~Sephity~ on Sept 6, 2010 10:15:24 GMT -5
If I knew 'em I'd tell ya, but I don't, gomenasai. I'm not too worried about it ya know?
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Lucifer
Sept 6, 2010 17:20:21 GMT -5
Post by KG on Sept 6, 2010 17:20:21 GMT -5
Getting the straight scoop on Lucifer isn't easy. Did you know that his name only appears in the King James bible once. He's inferred a couple of times. Most of the time evil is referred to in the bible as Satan, The Devil, or Devils, and Demons... Also Beelzebub is mentioned. Satan is a generic term meaning adversary... and as you know there are many devils, and demons.
I do know when and why it started being assumed that Lucifer was "THE DEVIL, and Satan. I study a lot of old texts and it looks to me like many of Jesus's descriptions of Satan fit Demiurge better than Lucifer. Demiurge is discussed a lot in the Gnostic Christian texts. Demiurge fits a lot better as sponsor of the Anti-Christ than Lucifer especially. Other times when Satan is mentioned it's obvious that he's talking about Lucifer. Really there's no sense getting competitive about it. The world is a screwed up place and theres' plenty of blame to go around to all the various devils... and still some mischief none of them can be blamed for. LOL
Lucifer's story is not well documented at all, so any extrapolation on the topic comes from either soul memories like Xav has.. I guess that's a good word for it, or from fiction and conjecture. Perhaps there is more information in some ancient rare texts, but I haven't found nearly as much real ancient references as I have modern references... I think of modern as the last thousand years... For some reason Lucifer has captured the imagination of Priests, Popes, Inquisitors and Evangelists and Fiction Writers, a lot more than the ancient Jews, and early Christians, so while there is a wealth of information, not much of it is old enough to be taken too seriously. The best source of knowledge on the subject is people like Xav who actually remember being there. There are others like Xav... other angels who remember those battles and are now incarnate. I've met several. Their stories basically match and I consider that information most reliable. As I said there isn't much schollarly information before the dark ages. Dark Ages Catholics were fairly Demiurge possessed. They were all busy persecuting heiritics and then they pulled in talk of Lucifer in order to accuse people of witch craft. Their MO is obvious to anyone who knows demiurge. Now I am not saying the Catholics invented Lucifer. He existed before then, but they sort of re-invented him, and extrapolated on his nature, in order to scapegoat people they wanted to kill and steal from. They re made him in the image of the worst fears of the people in their time, but their actions were more Satanic than Lucifer himself, and their is evidence now that some of them WERE attempting to practice ceremonial magic and various 'witchcraft' even while persecuting so called witches. We can't say the Catholics invented witchcraft either, but they certainly re-invented it right along with Lucifer. It was an interesting story, but in light of what they did with the information... well their actions discredit any real knowledge they may have had, because they lied so much. It's hard to differentiate real knowledge from the multitude of lies.
As for Demiurge he is the Father of the Pharisees, and totally controlled both the Catholics and the Muslims during the Crusades. From observing their actions we see a pattern that matches his character in the texts. He despises women, especially the wise ones. He hates cats because they are seen as fem. and wise. He is self righteous, and encourages a judgmental attitude. He is warlike, and "religious" We see that pattern in the predictions of the anti-christ as well. Lucifer as defined by Catholic Lore, and what little is said of him in the bible doesn't fit.
I know that you asked Seph, but I will tell you all I know as well if that's OK.
Well there are many angels, aeons, devils, demons etc... as to whom he created initially... well that's a subject you can debate forever without much light being cast on the subject. Who came first depends on what books you choose to believe, and what one's personal revelations and beliefs are. IDK who came first... though several of the books list the aoens in order of creation... and Logos was a very early one of those... and Logos is the spirit that was incarnate in Jesus Christ. Angels were created separately and differently than Aeons, and to my knowledge there is no list.
The bible mentions very few Angel names, but we do have a few lists of them from other ancient books. In my own experience angels are plentiful. There are billions I guess. There are legions of them, and one third went with Lucifer according to scriptures.
All angels and aeons are parts of God, and represent his various aspects, and will. WE are all eminations of God on different levels. So to answer your question yes all angels are aspects of God but there are a lot more than three of them, and supposing which ones came first or have more rank based on the fact you know their names might not be correct at all. They were all in existance by the time God made the earth, and long before the bible was written, so it's hard for mortal beings to guess these sorts of things.
In general there is little information on Lucifer before the dark ages, and those people had their own reasons for creating a myth . How can you accuse someone of witchcraft without the legend of Lucifer? All the trappings of Satanism, are just perversions of the uses of CATHOLIC ritual and religious trappings... perversions the priests themselves invented. Ever read a book called Papal Magic. It has quotes from the original writings of dark ages priests who were practicing "witchcraft" and "Satanism." The Dark ages Catholics created most of the Lucifer myth for their own greedy, and self righteous purposes, and really not much of their information is reliable.
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Lucifer
Sept 9, 2010 12:59:36 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Sept 9, 2010 12:59:36 GMT -5
All are reflections of God, Lucifer, all angels, every being and entity, down to a grain of sand and all existence within that single grain.
There is no devil, no Demurge, no evil, no good, for Lucifer is filled with the will of God just as all others are, conflict, strife, hate, love , faith, destruction, perseverance, darkness, chaos, despair, deceit, manipulation, all aspects of God none being less then the other.
Darkness is from God, just as is light, for they swirl and burn as one, as well as cease to exist as none in icy despair.
Lucifer is the hand of God, as he was and still is, the rebellion, war, all directly God's will to be done, and Lucifer flowed with the Will of God and did so.
Hubris, faith, hatred, jealousy, love, all one and the same, and all from God, it is these elements which flow through Lucifer strongly.
As for your question of differences between angels....Lucifer is the hand of God, the one which is filled with God's ever burning love and desire for God, to sacrifice all for God regardless of the cost. Lucifer desires to understand God and be one with God above all things, to be one with God's darkness and light not just one aspect. For to understand God one must experience all of God.
As for the battle between Lucifer and Michael, it was not Lucifer Michael was standing against, it was God's will Michael stood against. Lucifer fought not for his own self, he fought for the will which flowed forth from within him, God's will, and he had ever lasting undying faith in that will that flowed forth from him. That is why Michael was cast down during the battle of scales, of which both Lucifer and Michael took part of, the golden scales they fought upon, with the crimson veil behind them both, it was Michael who was cast down that battle and his vessel made empty.
Hubris....when flowed with entirely brings forth a connection with God unlike any other, and what truly differentiated Lucifer from all others, was that he resonated the aspects of god that no others did...Hubris, Hatred, undying Faith, Love unparalleled. And it was through the aspects that others judged him as being his faults, that were his greatest strengths, it is those deep seeded channels in lucifer that allow him to flow with God to an extent no others do, not even Michael.
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Lucifer
Sept 10, 2010 1:58:36 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 10, 2010 1:58:36 GMT -5
Welcome back Cass.
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nox
New Member
Posts: 11
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Lucifer
Sept 10, 2010 6:50:12 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 10, 2010 6:50:12 GMT -5
I don't really agree with much of what you have said, if anything of it at all to honest....it wasn't his love that drove lucifer to do what he did pretty sure it was pride and a lot of it. I just think that lucifer went a little too far at first but then didn't back down due to pride or maybe at some point really did believe he was god, again due to overwhelming pride. Pretty sure the word for this situation is hubris, as that seems to be lucifer's biggest element to him. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Well I guess that really depends on your pov, to me seems like a pretty bad thing sort of like a disease or fire that consumes you. And I wouldn't want to be eaten by any fire or disease, that's just by two cents.
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Lucifer
Sept 10, 2010 15:01:30 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Sept 10, 2010 15:01:30 GMT -5
Hello Xavrael
I do not mean to impose my view upon you Nox, however my paradigm of reality differs from that of others and even with heavy opposition I retain my perception of existence as I do.
There is no good or evil within my paradigm, all is one and the same, God is love, hate, destruction, gloom, deception, wisdom, knowledge, murder, birth, and so forth all concepts both named and not named. Lucifer in my view is the hand of god so to speak, one of his many instruments that god flows his spirit through, additionally I believe the relationship between lucifer and god is one of a kind in that lucifer was god's first creation, created to become one with god eventually, to channel the essence of god that no other would, the very essence of god that conflicts with His own self.
Lucifer to me is the darkness of god, the bearer of light....yes one third of all the "light" so to speak. And as that light, he so explores and ventures through the infinite depths and heights of god, to understand god and fulfill his infinite potential god created him with. So yes darkness shrouds lucifer, as light illuminates forth from him, as god shrouds lucifer and god illuminates forth from him.
Do you perceive?
Light does not necessarily correlate to rays of joy and a bright sunny sky....the light in lucifer is the understanding and heart to seek out god, the wisdom of god....of deception, manipulation, murder, destruction, chaos, hatred, jealousy and so forth. I truly do believe that Lucifer embodies the darkness of god that has existed before all else, and the light he so bears of god is the spirit and mind of god, to infinitely desire to understand god and in essence to meld the darkness and light of god as one.
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Lucifer
Sept 10, 2010 23:22:21 GMT -5
Post by KG on Sept 10, 2010 23:22:21 GMT -5
Yes Nox,
Cassiel has a rather unique perspective of Lucifer. I don't really agree with her on any of that, but she seems convinced of it. She's never said how or why she formulated her opinion, but she is entitled to it here. She has a right to express her opinion, but it's strictly her opinion.
Personally I have never seen any theological, experiential, or spiritual evidence to support her argument, and if she has some I wish she would reveal her source, because it is an interesting POV.
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Lucifer
Sept 11, 2010 11:21:11 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 11, 2010 11:21:11 GMT -5
While I don't agree with her opinion, even if what she says were the case, I highly doubt it would be written down anywhere specifically. More than likely it would be expressed through inconsistencies in various books regarding Angels and whatnot, and / or cause and effect type instances. Or correlated stuff. Putting the pieces together and the like from various sources.
Like most things regarding the spiritual... all we have are our personal experiences (feelings) and things that we may remember from a certain point of view.
One of the more frustrating things really - is the uncertainty outside of our belief in what we...believe heh.
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nox
New Member
Posts: 11
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Lucifer
Sept 11, 2010 16:50:04 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 11, 2010 16:50:04 GMT -5
I know everyone has their own opinion/memories/view point, but what is yours xavrael, of lucifer? What kind of entity was he/she/it, personality, powers, fighting style, intelligence? Also even though I don't agree with many of cassiels views, I find them fascinating and one which made me think was when she said lucifer is the darknes of god. Now since a child I was taught originally lucifer was the light of god till the war. However god I believe is light and darknes as mentioned many times in the bible how god is darkness incarnate as well as light, so what if lucifer is the darkness? I dontknow I just find it interesting
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Lucifer
Sept 13, 2010 19:16:15 GMT -5
Post by Ashira Bloodmoon on Sept 13, 2010 19:16:15 GMT -5
I believe that all celestial beings are equally powerful and dispowerful. This is how the universe maintains balance... This balance means that there really is no great good or great evil. Only actions that harm or heal. The best being is also the worst and the worst is also the best, all that matters, really, then, is the action. God and Lucifer though are separate are still equal.
My host believes that the snake in Eden was God gifting knowledge of good and evil to prevent evil. The voice proposed ignorance and thus anarchy and chaos. Without knowledge one cannot be accountable for their actions if wrong, because at that point, there would be no wrong or right.
While not what you were looking for, I hope this puts things into a sort of constructive mental thread.
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Lucifer
Sept 25, 2010 19:52:22 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Sept 25, 2010 19:52:22 GMT -5
Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, and all entities, are the thoughts, emotions, feelings of God, His internal beliefs, strivings, desires.
They are the very thoughts of God, made of one of a kind combinations of particular emotions, aspects of God. They are the different lines of thinking and feeling found within God, for with every thought and feeling of God so too does it reverberate through existence, and these entities are the very reflections of certain thoughts of God, certain portions.
There is no good, no evil, no right, no wrong, for it is all God, some thoughts and beliefs of God conflict with His own self more so then others, while others are more compatible with certain ones and vice versa in incompatibility.
Lucifer, jealousy, hatred, self focus, Extreme loyalty and devotion, sacrifice, Oneness above all, utter annihilation of all including the self. Wisdom, introspection, exploration of the depths of God's darkness, hatred, desire for destruction and evolution, undying will of self, entirely selfless in the sense that Lucifer exists less and less with every day as he becomes more and more of purely a channel, a flowing conduit of "God".
All "angels", entities are reflections of God, his thoughts given free form to personify interaction with one another, similarly how our thoughts combat with one another.
All strive, fight, exist purely for God, however they perceive one another as traitorous, the enemy, for those who will not condone to their vision of existence that they reflect of God.
The war of Heaven never ended, there was no set outcome, no set winner, Michael never overcame triumphant, nor was Michael ever the "grand" combatant that he is praised to be in text of this social day and age.
To be more accurate, it was Gabriel who was the "hit man" of God, the
Angels, the thoughts of God can never truly be destroyed as God can not be destroyed, however with "understanding" one entity a god, one thought of god can diffuse another thought of god, to diffuse them and consume them to assimilate them into their own paradigm.
Thus where Lucifer's strength lied primarily, in the wisdom of God, being the reflection of God's self analysis, His own introspection, to understand His self and all aspectts of self. To experience all, darkness, light, destruction, peace, and so forth all of God. It was in this understanding Lucifer was able to diffuse and rearrange, to change and warp the fabric of God and all thoughts of it consequently, in "battle" to simply put it, to entirely break down a spirit of God and consume them as His own self.
To put it simply, the reflection of God's will to be One, to overcome all and the embodiment of undying ever evolving self sacrifice and destruction, it was in this Lucifer was able to truly "destroy" the other thoughts of God by being able to truly focus the mind of God of what exists and what does not. Much like you truly deciding what is real and what is not real, what is right and what is not right, just as you are able to choose what is reality and what is not reality.
To be able to channel the inner emotions of God to such a degree of pure and utter clarity that he became a gateway of God's truest and deepest feelings, destruction, hatred, jealousy, divine devotion, desire to be the One and only One of all Existence, it was int his that Lucifer was a living doorway of the pure and utter destructive force that is God. The ability to destroy Ones own self, the ability to channel God to destroy God.
That which no other angel, entity, being, aspect of God possessed.
But of course with every action carries a consequence, that is not to say that with one "erasing" other entities it bears no effect upon Lucifer....which he came to understand later during the war.
With the erasing of others so too carries the effect of the individual doing so becoming increasingly focused, increasingly reflecting only the purest and basest of form of God that they resonate with most strongly. Thus the elimination of self, and becoming entirely only "God" so to speak.
Creation must fall to be cleaned. Eden had to fall for man to be clean, the question now asked is "what has happened to mankind, to creation, it has become like cattle, fed and raised upon a drug induced diet, raised for the slaughter". Must Fall to be Clean.
Creation shall fall, and all shall be cleaned.
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nox
New Member
Posts: 11
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Lucifer
Sept 30, 2010 23:08:49 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 30, 2010 23:08:49 GMT -5
Some thing of my own philosophy is that lucifer is not the first fallen, the rebel, yeah he waged war as he did. But I have my suspicions that their is some thing else at play, some thing beyond the scope of the "lucifer". I personally believe their is a "darkness" of god that exist, perhaps darkness is not the best word, more like the subconscious of god? If that makes sense. I think thats the true bringer of destruction, not lucifer.
What do you all think? I tend to view lucifer as well an angel like the rest, sure he may have been the first of the angels but still an angel ultimately. I believe their is some thing else, like the darkness or the hate of god in a manifested form, I dont know how to explain it exactly, but I think that is the true agent of destruction.
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Lucifer
Sept 30, 2010 23:35:34 GMT -5
Post by KG on Sept 30, 2010 23:35:34 GMT -5
You are so right Nox. I don't know who was first or strongest, but there are many sets of opposing forces in the universe. Many people do not like to think of these as good and evil, and maybe they aren't but some of these factions can seem that way. Cruelty, violence, temptations, corruptions and etc are common, and not all of these have anything to do with Lucifer.
Like I said many things are just a balance, Mercy and Severity for example. Either one out of balance can cause problems, but naturally everyone likes Mercy better... yet without a little severity we would never appreciate Mercy. Also Even Mercy realizes that sometimes the most merciful thing is to be severe to one, in order to protect the others. At the same time occasionally... ever so often, an energy or spirit of extreme severity will cause much undeserved cruelty. These forces can become downright demonic in action. (In case you are wondering both Mercy and Severity are entities, which can make energy forces which influence people.) That is just one balance.
The biggest negative entity at the present time though is man made. It is a fear based egrigore, which is like a dark cloud upon us all. It isn't a demon, it's not even sentient yet, though it could obtain some sentience later if it goes unchecked. It's been caused by this recession, the fast paced modern life, and basic social and financial fears which are running rampant through our society. This thing is much more dangerous than any demon right now, because it is highly contagious, and spreading like wildfire. Fear leads to almost every problem and sin mankind is capable of. There are a wide variety of reactions and all of them bad. If we cannot get a grip on this thing it will destroy our society.
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