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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 10:15:48 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 3, 2010 10:15:48 GMT -5
I don't think so, cass's last post was around the end of 2009. She may pop in but other than that *shrug*.
As for the complexity part, we're talking about things older than this universe and any other. Who can really say *why* such a thing could occur, especially to beings as old and wise as the celestials.
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nox
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 10:32:55 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 3, 2010 10:32:55 GMT -5
I still think lucifer was the villian with michael being the hero, I just don't see how such a simple thing could be so complex. Its why I disagree with most of the posts in this thread and the angel lore one, double agents, lucifer in disguise as michael, secretly working for god all along, a third unseen force he was fighting? I thought it was simply,lucifer coveted gods throne, rebelled, was beaten by michael, cast out of heaven, and then he vanished. Speaking of which, does anyone know what actually happened to lucifer after the war? What about all the angels, gabriel, raphael, uriel, etc.
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 11:59:29 GMT -5
Post by Kata Samoes on Sept 3, 2010 11:59:29 GMT -5
Lucifer doesn't hate God, he simply refused to be like servants to Him or man. And the Archangels are still around, active, or watching.
If you ever had the chance to civilly talk to Lucifer, he'd never say he hated God. Anger, hurt, maybe some resentment. But never hated. It's just not black and white like we're told, or want to believe.
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 18:04:19 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 3, 2010 18:04:19 GMT -5
Yeah...not so sure what the third force thing was all about. The double agents thing... is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't really make much sense in any context other than a sort of observation from outside the framework type thing anyway.
As Kata said, the Archangels are still around. As for the act... yeah, it's simple from an outside point of view, but it's the "why" itself and the consequences of that why and of those actions, that makes it complex.
Kata said it better than I. Was never black and white. Granted, considering how sneaky lucy is, I personally do think that whether Lucifer wants to admit it or not, he hates most things now because of what went on. But really, that's a minor detail and purely my opinion hehe ^_^"
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nox
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 19:33:44 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 3, 2010 19:33:44 GMT -5
So why does lucy hate most things now? And why is lucy sneaky, I would expect lucifer to use his powers to be thrashing the masses, or fighting other angels, I mean this is the guy who fought all of existence, shouldn't he be smashing face with little to no problem? I always saw it that either win or lose, lucifer was the single most powerful entity due to being god's first creation. I just don't understand the sneakyness
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 20:27:46 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 3, 2010 20:27:46 GMT -5
Just my way of simply saying that he is manipulative, conniving, etc. Just because someone or thing is, "powerful" doesn't mean that it negates the need for subtlety or tact. It gets boring after a while. He was the first *archangel*, and he could, "smash face" as you put it, lol. But there was always Michael to keep him in check. The other Archangels as well. He was strong, but not all powerful.
As for the hate, again, that was just my opinion. He's cut off, and I would think that the resentment, and the anger over his own folly and having actually been cast out, "him of all people", that it would fester and turn into rage and hate. Just a thought.
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nox
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 21:32:00 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 3, 2010 21:32:00 GMT -5
So my question is, I've always wondered what michaels power level was, was lucifer > michael, but not lucifer > michael+many others? Like one vs one rolls face, but not vs many michael level beings?
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 22:45:01 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 3, 2010 22:45:01 GMT -5
they both have their strengths as most things. One may be better than the other at one thing and visa versa, it's not like in animes where one person is weaker but buffs up later, no, there is no glass ceiling on personal strength, but you can't really slap a number on it.
But, to put it simply, the creator sent Michael to cast Lucifer out, and he did.
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nox
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Lucifer
Sept 3, 2010 23:32:48 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 3, 2010 23:32:48 GMT -5
So what happens if the creator allowed complete free will, who wins then? Is that even possible? If the creator stepped away entirely to let his creations duke it out and decide existence, would said creations even be able to exist without god? As they seem like manifestations of his direct will. Personally I believe michael trounced lucifer in combat, but according to cassiel she believes lucifer murdered michael or some thing of the sort, think its a possibility?
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Lucifer
Sept 4, 2010 11:54:46 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 4, 2010 11:54:46 GMT -5
No. Michael wasn't killed in any shape or form.
Complete free will is already in effect (reason why things are pretty bad in the world. Also why there are a few lights of hope as well. Some choose not to follow the status quo. All races need to learn to stand on their own and work together if they're to survive, and continue forward, via evolution and/or whatever other means there may be).
The creator has an overarching goal but the choices are ours, really.
Going back, Even without the backing of God, Michael would have won. But like you mentioned, Cassiel believed otherwise.
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nox
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Lucifer
Sept 4, 2010 11:59:44 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 4, 2010 11:59:44 GMT -5
Why would michael have won otherwise? Is it personal opinion or fact? I'm just trying to draw a solid picture.
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Lucifer
Sept 4, 2010 12:25:12 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Sept 4, 2010 12:25:12 GMT -5
Well, since he already won, I'll just go with personal opinion =].
Why? Because when Michael was created, he was like the good son that Lucifer should have been. One of the many roads of potential in front of Michael when he was created involved being the counter to Lucifer. That's not all Michael does really. He has a hand in a lot of things as a prince of heaven. Like Lucifer, he's an Archangel, but created to be the general of the angelic host.
There are a few reasons but they all boil down to personal opinion. Michael wasn't cut off from heaven like Lucifer was. Michael was created without that flaw of hubris, so in his humbleness he never thought to look down or underestimate anyone.
*shrug* I just don't believe he would have lost.
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Lucifer
Sept 5, 2010 0:39:38 GMT -5
Post by ~Sephity~ on Sept 5, 2010 0:39:38 GMT -5
I've wondered myself many times why lucifer would rebel in the first place, if he was created by god along with the other 2 first archangels to act out his will. I find it easy to think of this way:
God = Infinity = Infinite possibilities/realms/realitys whatever. God 'splits' himself into 3 peices; gabriel, michael, and lucifer, all being equal but under god, then from there the tree gets bigger, and somewhere along the line is us. We have free will. I imagine everything below and above us has free will as well, but not necessarily on the level as us therefor we may not think of it as 'free'. Like we're loosely programmed, so we can branch off more so than say an archangel which has a more defined task, but as is proven by lucifer can go their 'own way'.
When I think of it this way I feel god 'knew' lucifer would rebel. Among that I'm sure lucifer knew in doing so he would fail. Sort of like someone without legs running a race because someone said they can't do it. They may not be able to do it but damned if they won't try.
PS: I'm sorry this probably doesn't make much sense. I am very bad at conveying things from my mind to others, and it is hard to pop into a conversation that i have been out of for quite some time.
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Lucifer
Sept 5, 2010 10:23:55 GMT -5
Post by KG on Sept 5, 2010 10:23:55 GMT -5
Hi to everyone, great to see so many posts this morning. YAY!!
As to where Lucifer is right now... there are very definitely negative and opposing forces involved in the universe, but as to how much of that is Lucifer personally? I don't know what percentage he's responsible for, but I doubt he's responsible for even half or a fourth of it. I sense many negative forces working, and the ones I see personally in my own life both on earth and as Mercy don't have anything to do with Lucifer, at least not directly.
The way i see it there are billions of souls on the earth, incarnated, and many more who are not incarnated. Most of those are positively aligned... or at least try to be. Incarnate souls, are imperfect while in the flesh... or at least the part of them stuck in this body is. WE all screw up and get confused on what we are supposed to be doing. We make mistakes, get angry, forget why we are here, listen to the wrong people and spirits ane emotions, and ect, and all that accounts for MOST negative events on the earth that we see every day, but in some strange way something does unite those random errors... there is are obviously some common spirits of influence, that we fall prey to.
I personally don't see Lucifer as a major player in the human fleshy puppet show which could be as easily called human error, but of course I was raised to believe he was the only one. Much is made of the one mention of his name in the Bible. IDK>>> The Hebrew words Satan is a very generic term simply meaning adversary... as in Adversary of God and his people... and I know Lucifer is not the only one of those.
In practice we are all at risk of becoming adversarial, by mistake, or mis-practice. Practice is risky sometimes, and has grey areas. I remember a story I heard about a group of young christians on line who were trying to practice, but knew very little. They tried to BURN the akashic library... Now WTF>>> it was just some phrase they had heard, and labled it witchcraft. It was all nonsense, but I think something like that would go against the will of God. Religious Zeal, be it Christian, Muslem or any other religion, has killed a lot more people than Witchcraft. It is so strange that so many atrocities are religion related, therefore I tend to think a lot of evil in the world is caused by a spirit I call Demiurge... but you can call him anything you like... I connect it with the Gnostic texts, but however you want to explain it, that superior acting force that leads people to slaughter others because of religious or political differences, and out of greed, and just the joy of killing by torture and ect, while pretending to be holy, or at least in the right, is very much alive and well... but as I said, I don't think that is Lucifer. The force I speak of could also be called ignorance, or corruption of the fleshly practice of religion or other belief, while denying the spiritual. It is a festival of the litteral... and it is fed by fear.
At any rate I see that force I call Demurge, that starts a fight and possesses both sides, and enjoys torture, hates women and cats, tries to control all powerful religious, political, and even corporate groups... is the major problem ATM. There are also a few other groups, some of which are incarnate practitioners who are much more a threat in modern times than old slew foot. LOL Not that I am siding with him at all, just that I haven't seen his influence as a major force in the world right now. He seems of little consequence compared to other things that are happening, such as poverty, greed, war, and etc... not that Lucifer can't cause those things, I just don't see him doing it lately.
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nox
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Lucifer
Sept 5, 2010 15:00:35 GMT -5
Post by nox on Sept 5, 2010 15:00:35 GMT -5
I've never heard of demurge or anything like that, I'm more familiar with the more mundane and normal theories, normal as it gets lol. I wish there was like a story book detailing all the accounts of the wars of heaven, from the start, to detailing every battle that took place, all the angels each angel fought and the outcome of it.
So seph you think god initially created three beings, lucifer, michael, gabriel? And each embodied a portion of god's will? I like this theory, makes sense and doesn't contradict anything of the mainstay theories I know. I guess there is no right and wrong then in what lucifer did if hes a portion of god's will, maybe part of god wanted to rebel to change the way things were functioning or to throw in some change.
so my quesiton is, gabriel and michael duke it out, who wins?
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