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Post by Del on Oct 3, 2009 1:02:10 GMT -5
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Post by KG on Oct 3, 2009 8:58:47 GMT -5
It is about a guy named Jacque Fresco... self educated, no credentials, he seems to be about the age of my mother. However he has had sucesses in business, and he is an inventor, designer ect... he's developed a lot of ideas similar to Stoner's.
Imagine an elderly, Stoner, with experince, and at least some influence, who thinks we'd be better off without money... however he is interested in human well being as well as nature, and he believes that we have enough resources to live much better lives, and that we should have a resouce based society, rather than a monetary based society. Of course like most people in this world who are anti monetary... well he's had to accept some compromise. I notice he doesn't pay anybody... he wants volunteers who would normally be WELL paid for their work, but at the same time he has a web store and takes donations... money's bad unless you give it to me!!! He has a site called the Venus Project, but all this is connected. I don't mean to make light of his cause... but he's only half way there... he knows he needs money to survive, but doesn't recognize that everyone else does. He's very intelectual and creative, but IDK... I agree it would be better, but plans to transition this sort of thing... well he's either ahead of his time, or beating a dead horse, and I am not sure which. I do not see this as possible, but it might be nice if it were... on the other hand it might be a true nightmare. Hard to tell really.
Frankly I have little hope that something like this would ever be seriously considered, and if so not in your lifetime, and especially not in his. Maybe in a few hundred years... someone will pick through his ideas and adopt some of them.
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Post by Del on Oct 3, 2009 9:23:49 GMT -5
It is about a guy named Jacque Fresco... self educated, no credentials, he seems to be about the age of my mother. However he has had sucesses in business, and he is an inventor, designer ect... he's developed a lot of ideas similar to Stoner's. Imagine an elderly, Stoner, with experince, and at least some influence, who thinks we'd be better off without money... however he is interested in human well being as well as nature, and he believes that we have enough resources to live much better lives, and that we should have a resouce based society, rather than a monetary based society. Of course like most people in this world who are anti monetary... well he's had to accept some compromise. I notice he doesn't pay anybody... he wants volunteers who would normally be WELL paid for their work, but at the same time he has a web store and takes donations... money's bad unless you give it to me!!! He has a site called the Venus Project, but all this is connected. I don't mean to make light of his cause... but he's only half way there... he knows he needs money to survive, but doesn't recognize that everyone else does. He's very intelectual and creative, but IDK... I agree it would be better, but plans to transition this sort of thing... well he's either ahead of his time, or beating a dead horse, and I am not sure which. I do not see this as possible, but it might be nice if it were... on the other hand it might be a true nightmare. Hard to tell really. Frankly I have little hope that something like this would ever be seriously considered, and if so not in your lifetime, and especially not in his. Maybe in a few hundred years... someone will pick through his ideas and adopt some of them. That's what I thought.... One of the new english teachers here in Gimcheon [the dancer I supposedly connected with and apparently disconnected with] posted this on her Facebook page and announced it as if it were the savior of this time...all love and piece stuff. SO I didn't watch the two hour movie, but I scanned through the site. It's a wonderful idea, but realistically, as I see it, even if this were to be acomplished, there will always be that one person to test the 'system' [because that's what it will be, just another system'] and try to conquer it; to see if he or she can create an exciting game because they may find it spiritually unfulfilling. In his Psychology and Spirituality section [of course I had to nit pick at those two sections] he failed to mention 'Duality' as being a prime factor in why things are the way they are. Unless opposites are cut out of the equation, it's not going to go 'as planned'; unless 'diversity' is tailored [which would defeat the whole purpose of this expansive human growth and development he's proposing] it will not go 'as planned'. There will still be conflict to some extent - maybe not all out wars, but conflict nonetheless. Why? Because that is how this 'reality', this side of existence works. Unless there is a Divine change in how things go, I think it's a pretty picture, and only a pretty picture.
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Post by KG on Oct 3, 2009 16:31:01 GMT -5
I was interested that someone with his age, intellect, experience and success level would think it was even possible. I don't see how it is. I tried very hard to see how it was possible back when Stoner used to get on his soap box, and it just won't. I have a whole list of reason why a non monetary system will not work.
1. Lack of motivation. The communists have noticed this problem in Russia, especially. Why bother to excel? Why bother to go beyond what is required, if you get no extra rewards. People have to have a reason to do the things they do, and they have to not only be fed, but have a chance for some rewards in order to be motivated.
2. Transition phase. As it is now, money is very very necessary, and that need is engrained... even comunist countries have currency, and every civilization that ever existed had some sort of currency. People are conditioned to think in terms of income. No money is a frightening concept to most people, including me. I think being broke is probably among my worst fears... and probably the fears of most people. People think in terms of annual salary as a measure of success, and they think of how much things cost, and their whole lives are based in keeping as much money going into their households and going out. They propose doing away with all that... and IDK how that would work.
3. Nothing comes from nothing... Everything comes from hard work, raw materials, and financial resources to start. People can't work for free, because everything we need costs money. If labor is free, then materials still cost, and if materials are free, then we still have to put forth an effort, and we need to be rewarded for those efforts in order to motivate.
4. The rich would not allow it. Those who have the most NOW, stand to loose the most, by abolishing money... and they are the ones with all the power. Sure some ner-do-well, who doesn't work, and doens't want to work thinks it is great if we all divide our wealth, and those like us who are scratching for a living, might say what the heck... maybe so, but the very wealthy 1% or 2% who run EVERYTHING, would never allow it, unless you made them the distributers of everything... in other words they have it all and dole it out as they see fit, keeping the best for themselves... having the power to keep all the wealth for themselves, and measure out enough for the rest of us to survive... or not... at their descretion... sure they'd like it then, and only then. The wealthy and powerful would never allow his plan to happen, unless they had a counter plan to end up with it all anyway.
5. Potential for abuse of power. Someone would still have to be in charge, and that someone would likely abuse the others terribly, and there would be no recourse to protect us from the master, or leader. Working for free, in a system that allows no other system is slavery.
6. No chance for advancement or to improve one's life. People have to support their families, and that means more than subsistance... It means growth. Children are born, and they need food, education, and a place in society. As more people were born in this eutopia, it would knock down the resources, and productivity would suffer, because of the absence of work ethic that would likely occur without chance for advancement and improvement.
7. The need to establish an Authoritarian Police State to force production - The need for motivation would lead for the need for more punishment for not doing, since there is not tangible reward for doing. If we all get a plate of raddishes and turnips, whether we work or not, then why bother... the plate isn't engough to justify our labor, it is only sustenence, but it is too much to take out of the system for those who don't work... especially if those who don't work, become the majority, due to lack of motivation. It has been said, that "He who doesn't work, shouldn't eat." However, if there is no motivation for working, then those people will have to be forced to... and that can get nasty.
8. Boredom, depression, and apathy. It would be boring, if we had no money, no motivation to excel, and no pressure to succeed other than punishment if we didn't. His pictures are beautiful, with all the wonderful archetecture... but in reality, I don't think it would work that way. When I picture it, I see people living in shanties, poorly built housing projects, and cardboard boxes, and eating a plate of very poorly cooked vegitables. It is communism basically, and just look at archetecture and art in the Soviet Union. Before Communism, they built lovely arechetecture, and some people lived very well, while most starved. This led to them killing the rich, and creating a communist state, but then they found that there wasn't enough to go around, not because of money, or because of the rich hording, but because of non productivity, and lack of positive motivation. Everything from over there looked so grubby and depressing during the communist era.
9. I see a potential for loss of indivdualism. If everyone is treated the same and given the same, would we not all be the same? Would there be dancing costumes for Raquel? Would there be art supplies for Mem and Kim? Would there be a camera for Booklvr? Or wouldn't we all be given one paintbrush and one tube of paint, and a disposable camera? Wouldn't we wear identical uniforms? I fear a huge loss of individuality.
10. Who would agree to even try such a thing? No one with any foresight at all. No one who knows anything about planning and organizing, because they could see the holes and the potential for utter failure, as not worth the risk. I would not support it, any more than i would support the other extreme where non productive people starve to death. I mean I say no to the death pannel and it would come down to that in either extreme.
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