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Post by KG on Mar 24, 2009 13:41:58 GMT -5
I am starting this thread in hopes that Stoner will find it helpful to have his own Thread. It may seem that I am speaking for Stoner, and if he has additions he should post them. It is just that Stoner can't really express these things well. I will post the best ones IMO first. I think overall his problem is in delivery of his plan, and also the fact that he tends to make sweeping statements that include other issues when he needs to stay focused on one thing at a time, and categorize his plan. I will put things into categories.
I have heard his goals, and they are numerous, but I will try to convery some of them here, as fairly and positively as I can. Honestly many of them are good ideas, but not something he can express well. He gets very angry because the world is so far from where it should be in his opinion. Stoner gave me a link to a movie, and after years of talking to him, this movie gave me a better idea of what he means. I will try to incorporate that in his message.
Summary:
Stoner is a naturalist, to the extreme. He does not appreciate any sort of society, civilization, archetecture/construction, government, law enforcement, or especially the monetary system. He considers all this a cancer on the face of the earth. He despises materialism, consumerism, and the overproduction of mass produced products that clog our homes and garbage dumps.
Stoner believes that we should live naturally in the forest like Native Americans did before we came. Anything we have use or eat, we should make or grow ourselves, or trade with others goods for goods, not purchase with any sort of money.
He also believes we should all be vegan, and not eat meat since animals have souls, however so far he has been unable to incorporate this into his own life. I think he plans to in the future but right now he is dependent on other for sustenence so he can't be that picky.
Above everything else Stoner despises currency. He refuses to work for a pay check and that so far has resulted in making his ability to live independently just about impossible, but he clings to that above all his other rules. He will work, to help others, and do things for them, but he won't work for a corporation and take a check. He is the litteral embodiment of the I will work for food sign. He doesn't want money, but I do not know if he has tried the sign or not. Most people do give those guys money rather than bring them home though...
Stoner believes that Marajuana and Hemp should be legalized and of all his arguments that one is the most well thought out. I will detail his plan for that below. Personally I believe this is his strongest and best argument and he should focus on this as a one goal at a time sort of strategy rather than trying to impact everything at once. I agree with him on a lot of it, and might throw in my two cents as well in this section.
There are some of the many restrictions in Stoner's beliefs.
Anti-money and anti materialism.
1. He can't work for money or a paycheck, especially not from a corporate entity. This is his number one rule, and he hates money. It is his biggest passion. Money is evil. It represents a corrupt Government, and it has no real value of its own. It promotes the tax structure which supports a corrupt government. It promotes greed, and excessive wealth for some, and poverty for others.
2. He doesn't believe in buying things, though of course he does sometimes. I will say that his possessions are few and even fewer are treasured. His favorite things are his little hippy sandles, his electronic key board, his computer, and his video games.
3. Stoner believes that people should share their goods and services for free. He believes in sharing everything, not based on work, but to divide all things with whomever needs them. Working should be for the joy of it, to help others and not for monetary reward.
Living Conditions
1. People should not build huge houses for themselves it is wasteful, and amounts to no more than costly eyesores on the landscape. It is polution to have vast sprawling housing developments taking up farmland, and forests.
2. Likewise people should not construct huge business buildings, factories, and shopping malls. People should create items with their own hands, and give them to those they appreciate. There is no reason to have huge facilities for trade.
3. We should not construct government buildings, cause basically government is just a source of problems anyway and we do not need them. WE do not need laws, and people should do as they please.
4. There is no reason to create any large structure. People can meet outside, and they can trade with each other, privately. People should live in small modest dwellings, which are earth friendly, or better yet they should live in Tee-pees, or sleep under the stars.
5. People do not need electricity.
6. People do not need cars, or any sort of artificial transportation, except maybe a bike, but people should walk everywhere they go.
7. The only exception to this is for purposes of medical care. Stoner does not wish to limit health care, though wholistic preventitive maintenence is better, sometimes people get sick and they should be treated for free. Doctors need to give up greed, and remember why doctors exist in the first place. They should heal the sick out of the goodness of their hearts, and those who make hospital equipment and staff hospitals should do the same.
Diet and health
1. Vegan - Animals have souls, and to slaughter them is probably murder... but it is very hard to live like that. In nature animals kill for food, so perhaps if nothing is wasted... but the conditions food animals are raised under are sometimes inhumane... and we probably shouldn't eat meat. Stoner is less outspoken on this, but believes that people should eat a lot less meat and more vegitables.
2. Organic foods - Stoner believes that food should be grown without any chemicals, which are harmful to nature and to humans.
3. No high frutose corn syrup - It is very bad, and likely to cause numerous health problems. I can't remember all that ATM, but he is right they are unhealthy... but hard to give up, cause they are in Sodas.
4. Deoderants, Toothpastes, and many personal higene products have harmful chemicals in them. One should seek out all natural products like Tom's all Natural to combat one's smellyness, or forego them altogether.
Legalization of Hemp and Marajuana
You are probably wondering how any of this might work, due to the difficulty of forging an existance out of the earth... and the huge problems we have already created in our ecology with our irresponsiblity in dumping chemicals. Well worry no more about of that! With the legalization of hemp, we solve many of the world's problems. Well the answer is incredibly simple. Cleanse the earth with Hemp! Hemp and Marajuana are the same thing. Hemp is the strong but boring male, and Marajuana is the intoxicating female of this suprisingly life giving couple.
I may not be able to explain this exactly right, but I will try. I won't go into detail on the science end, but stoner has shared his research with me, and the science is sound.
What to do with Hemp.
Grow Hemp everywhere, let it take the earth with it's weed like fast growth and oxygen giving nature. Plant it in fields plant it in forests, plant it in your yard. It is the only thing that will save us. Hemp is a useful plant unfairly illegalized, first to protect the timber trade, and more recently due to ignorant moral prohibitions.
Hemp is very useful. It can be used for nearly every need humans have. It is a miracle plant, and it has been very unfairly banned, when really it has the capacity to save us all.
1. It is wearable - Hemp fabric is strong, washable, and comfortable.
2. it is edible - is nutritious having all the amino acids and nutrients humans need to live. Of course we can still grow vegitables, and eat them for variety, but we could if necessary live by hemp alone.
Slight Disclaimer... this is Stoner's work, and for my part I think there could be deficiencies in the long range term, of eating only hemp, few though, and those could easily be balanced with other plants, and herbs. It might be a problem for the rare unfortuante people who might be alergic too, but overall I think we could do this. Alergic reactions to Marajuana itself are extremely rare. The intoxicating effects might make life interesting at first for some of us who react strongly but eventually we would all build a strong tolerance since we would be consuming it on a daily basis.
3. Hemp can be used for construction - It is strong, and a sturdy ply wood can be created from it. It is resiliant and much stronger than pine ply wood. It rivals Oak from what he told me.
4. Hemp can be used to make various resins that are plastic PVC like in productgion, and are as tough or nearly as tough as Metal or concrete. Many different forms of this resin could be mixed with different properties to replace plastic, wood, metal, and concrete.
5. Last and most important, hemp is competely renewable, and rapidly renewable. Unlike Oak and Pine that take many many years to grow to a usable size, Hemp grows incredibly rapidly. It makes a tree in little more than a normal crop cycle. According to him it does not deplete the soil, but rather replentishes it, and logically, knowing the properties of hemp that could be true.
6. Now for my two cents. More people are in prison for drug related crimes than any other reason. They clog our prison systems which could better be used for people who are truely dangerous. They cause inocent people to be persecuted by law enforcement, and they represent a victimless crime that should not be a crime at all. They waste resources for courts and law enforcement. No one ever died from marajuana use. It is completely and totally non toxic. More people have died from eating peanuts, than from smoking grass. Comparing it to alcohol, cigarettes, asprin, and other legal substances... even colas, it is overwhelmingly more safe than any of those. The only reason it is illegal, as near as I can figure is because it is FUN!!!
Oddities
Now that I have explained the core of Stoner's beliefs which I believe are intrinsically good, I'll go into the more bizzare, obscure and well... the ones I am less fond of. All of the above I can understand and think maybe he is right. I do not like giving up money, but pot legalization might make it bearable. I personally do not smoke pot, but I can see such a boon to the resources we actually might be able to just give away work we do in our free time, when we aren't growing pot. Personally I like money though. I like it a lot, and just wish there was more to go around. It is convenient, and a means of trade that is more practical than Barter in most cases.
Problems and Solutions of Stoner's beliefs.
Problem number one is that there are too many people on the earth. We need to somehow loose 75 percent of the population. That is the only thing that he and former President Bush ever agreed on. LOL
Problem number two is that we have all these buildings and crap already built. The system is set up and accoring to him all this needs to come down. The government, the monetary system, the buildings, the greed all have to go.
Problem number three Stoner does not rule the world, and frankly he has no influence at all. He does not speak or write persuasively enough, and he tends to get irate very easily cause things are not going his way.
Solving all these problems would require a colapse of the current system, and a period of total anarchy. Perhaps some plague or cataclysm would reduce the population. Stoner talks alot about the need for colapse. He feels that the only way we can fix this system is to first break it entirely and start over. I feel that the suffering and loss of life involved in that are just too much to bear. The difference between Stoner's ideology and mine are basic. I am more concerned for individual people, where he is more concerned with preserving the planet, and humans as a species are no more worthy than any other animal to survive the catastrophy that is approaching.
Anyway Stoner wants to break down society and civilization completely. He is willing to help it along but he can't do that alone. He's even considered random extermination of humans as a possibility. He sees that we cannot all survive here without destroying the planet... He gets vehement about this, and his talk of this is scary.
oddly I don't think he believes in birth control. I am not sure though, I'd have to ask.
Oddities of Stoner's thoughts.
Stoner is always questioning social structure and the family unit. He asks questions like,
1. "Why does a marriage have to be between two people? Why couldn't there be four people? Two males and two females who are exclusively devoted sexually to one another?"
2. "Why don't children have more say so in the world, more freedoms, including the right to vote, the right to do as they please, and even to have sex if they want to?"
3. "Why can't people have sex in public? And of course they should have the right to breast feed in public. People should be completely natural, and behave in whatever way they wish without anyone else even thinking it is strange. If an adult wants to walk the banisters, or swing from a railing they should, as long as the structure is strong enough to hold them and not break. If an person wishes to behave in a child like manner, or a XXX adult manner at any given time they really should. What difference does it make if others don't approve?
4. He is definitely sympathetic to transsexualism, and gender bending. He doesn't believe that people have steadfast roles based in gender, nor does he think that men are always born physically men and women always born physically women. People should explore sexuality without any sort of moral prohibition. Monogomy is fine, good, and he leans towards it personally, but it should be a choice, not a requirement.
5. Overall lifestyle should be a choice competely up to the individual, and people need to be endlessly creative in creating their lifestyles. No one should condemn others for adultry, fornication, pologamy, sex in the street, or gender changes or bends. Everyone has a right to do as they please, no matter how odd... maybe this includes pedophiles. I am not entirely sure.
These are just a few of the odd things he says sometimes. IDK... but there are others, I just can't think of all of them, and some i really wouldn't want to have to explain, or even state here. He's said some weird shit before... let's just leave it at that.
The random weird shit is what blows Stoner's credibility all to pieces. If he would stick to one subject or catagorize his ideas as I have done, I think he could gain support for some of them... but the whole idea with it's constantly changing and growing outcroppings is kind of frightening to people. I think if he could keep it simple and mostly stick to the hemp issue he could sell this baby, but when he speaks of giving up currency, destroying buildings, doing away with all law and order, and killing off 3/4 of the population he starts to loose people. IMO he has a shot at impacting the marajuana situation, but the rest of it is unlikely to happen of his volution. A collapse is possible even probable, but unlike Stoner I see that as undesirable. There is no reason to think that even if it did colapse, Stoner's perfect world would emerge from the ashes.
Kim
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Post by Stoner Shadow Wolf on Mar 24, 2009 15:31:50 GMT -5
He does not appreciate any sort of society, civilization, archetecture/construction, government, law enforcement, or especially the monetary system. He considers all this a cancer on the face of the earth. He despises materialism, consumerism, and the overproduction of mass produced products that clog our homes and garbage dumps. Architecture that does not impact the environment is a-okay. "tepees" work great since they can be picked up and moved if need be. Structures that cause death to the environment bother me. a simple house kills any plant life that might have once grown beneath it. when i moved to North Carolina, i did not live how i wanted to live, i lived how the people in the house i was invited lived. the moral of the story is: this is the native american house, and we invaded, and are running THEIR house by "OUR" rules. It is not money itself so much as it is teh standardization thereof. money wouldnt be a problem if it werent the ONLY "official" means to purchase and trade food and goods. at least you're starting to realize jsut how picky i CANT afford to be right now... meat is not necessary, the amino acids that make it "necessary" are only conveniently found in meat. Protiens are even MORE conveniently found in HUMAN meat mind you, but they are most HEALTHILY found in plants and insects. plants and insects have souls just the same as animals and humans, but the difference is, animals have active free will, plants only have mental free will. plants are more evolved than animals and humans; they KNOW they are food, and take PRIDE in that. Animals are rather offended that we treat them like a resource and not like family. the native americans thinned the herd by targeting only the weaker and slower animals. this strengthened the herd's genetic pool, and provided them with the necessary sustinence of meat. It was necessary for only certain tribes, particularaly the great plains tribes, since they did not have adequate garden lang to grow their own food, they had to hunt to pick up the slack. but they di not farm the animals, they left them to be free, and followed the herd, they lived WITH nature, instead of trying to DOMINATE it. Dependence/independence is a lie. it is an illusion created by the powers that be to further force us to depend on their system of greed and power. there is only interdependence. we are interdependent on corporations and they are interdependent on us. they would not be so powerful if we did not "need" their products. WE give THEM their power, and in doing so, we ALLOW them to TAKE ours from us. i will do for others because i can, not because i am getting something for it. i am using my talents and abilities to the best of my ability, without needless prerequisite. because money is easier and takes no requirement of personal responsibility on behalf of the spender. it is futile to hold a sign saying "will work" when all people have to do is toss a quarter at them. KNOWS the whole point of wanting cannabis to be a non-legal issue is to cure the cancer of the world. seeing as how it permits us true independence, being as how it can be used for just about anything and everything we would ever need to survive, it would cripple the corporations and governments who weild control over us by limiting our access to the very necessities of life; which cannabis can provide freely, with only a little effort on the behalf of the grower. scratch computer and videogames. they are only helping me pass time during this period wherein there is nothing i can DO with my life to advance my own goals. i spend some of that time walking around the city and exercising, but not as much as i would like to, on account of being too shy to work out in front of other people, particularaly people who arent working out as well. if you dont need it, and arent using it, you can only be greedy by not giving it to someone who does need it and will use it. be it food, shelter, clothing, or entertainment. a huge lack of information, but understandably, since it would take a lot of effort to single out and hilight the importance of family institution and teaching personal responsibilities. an entire section devoted to child raising would have to go here. but the simple answer would be allow children to be free, do not control them, only teach and guide them. the more a child understands, the more mature and responsible that HUMAN BEING can become. actually, electricity itself isnt such a bad thing, it is jsut what we use it for, and how we weild it that bother me the most. TVs, radios, internet, cars, etc. electricity is required for the function of any living organic mass of cells. electricity would be better used as a subject of extensive research than a power source. or jog
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Post by toner Shadow Wolf on Mar 24, 2009 15:43:52 GMT -5
Oddities Now that I have explained the core of Stoner's beliefs which I believe are intrinsically good, I'll go into the more bizzare, obscure and well... the ones I am less fond of. All of the above I can understand and think maybe he is right. I do not like giving up money, but pot legalization might make it bearable. I personally do not smoke pot, but I can see such a boon to the resources we actually might be able to just give away work we do in our free time, when we aren't growing pot. Personally I like money though. I like it a lot, and just wish there was more to go around. It is convenient, and a means of trade that is more practical than Barter in most cases. it appeals to everyone because it requires no personal responsibility on the spender's behalf, other than te "responsibility" to be able to acquire more and afford what it is they buy. would you rather die from a gunshot to the head, or die from cancer over the period of 5 years? not tearing it down is cancer. tearing it down will be a gunshot to many, but it is more humane than letting them suffer the slow death from their own self inflicted cancer. worse still is that they are completely oblivious of the infliction and the disease. is it really humane to let them continue on like this? what makes us any more special than everything or anything else? that is a multi layered argument. the artificial diets of civilization promote fertility beyond the means to maintain it. Why, i have to ask, are we overpopulated in this artificial world, when native people have RARELY ever had such problems as overpopulation? responsibility is critical. Easter island had overpopulation, but none the resources to manage it, so they developed a system of building stone statues to determine who ruled the day. (source: PBS or discovery) even i find that sick, but if a child is intelligent enough to understand the implications and further more gives their consent, what the F**k right does anyone have to interfere? children are intentionally kept dumb ("innocent" as christians like to say) and powerless. i am not trying to be credible, only straightforward. if it bothers you or freaks you out, and you dont want to give me credibility, that really isnt MY problem. im not trying to be a leader or ruler of any sort, by no means do i even want that kind of power (to exist at all, mind you), but i am going to keep pushing for a world where we can all live harmoniously together with any nation, culture, sexuality, species, or spirit. An end to all non-consensual conflict.
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Post by Xavrael on Mar 24, 2009 18:03:09 GMT -5
Their choice. You may not see it, but there is always hope.
Forgot to mention - They also had cannibalism.
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Post by KG on Mar 24, 2009 18:32:09 GMT -5
Cool Stoner!!!
I think the organization of your ideas into categories helped a lot, and your comments were most productive. You really answered some questions I had, about most every issue there is more information now. Perhaps you could write your child rearing thesis.
As for the reasons I harp about your crediblity, well that isn't for me. I think you have some good ideas that should get a chance, but you have other ideas that no one is ready to accept. It isn't just me. You want people to listen to you. You do want to make changes, and some of these no one would agree to out of free will. And Free will is another one of your ideals which I didn't really go into but you are a huge advocate of free will. This plan is not going to agree with the free will of most people.
I really really think the hardest pill to swallow out of all this is the extermination of 3/4 of the population... I know you are not going to get a lot of volunteers to be one of the 3/4.. and just the odds you might be one is enough to scare anyone off that plan.
I know that sociologists behind closed doors in intelectual conversations have said the same thing. As a matter of fact the Iron Mountain Report is about just that. During the Kenedy Administration. President Kenedy the most benign face of all presidency so far, paid to have a study done of what we would do if there were no more war. The sociologists decided that the main problem with desolving the concept of war, would be unchecked population increase. They actually revealed that the main reason we have wars is to decrease the population. Think of it, in terms of animal herds and hunting. The iron mountain report outlined other ways to kill off surplus population without war.
At any rate Stoner is not first to realize that we need to curb our populations, even if it means killing people off, but the idea is historically very unpopular. The Iron Mountain Report leaked to the public, or at least the underground public, and people were horrified. It set a wave of anti government parinoia that has still not settled down.
Hitler didn't get nearly as many as 3/4 of the population, nor did Stalin... nor both of them put together. Both of those men are considered monsters. I agree personally. I do have a certain afinity for humans as individuals, and I don't believe in killing them. I don't go around killing animals either, but the idea of it... it bothers me to. I do not think we need to even consider killing people off deliberately.
Many of the us here on the board have foreseen a plague, within the next hundred years, or rather a series of plauges each more horrible than the one before, and it will indeed take out 3/4 of the world population. WE have predicted that anyway. We were actually trying to figure out a way to prevent that though, so... Stoner and I just disagree on the need to reduce the population by such drastic means. I believe in birth control, and the death penalty for mass murderers, and pedophiles, but not outright randomly killing people. Agreeing to massive genocide is not something many people are going to agree with. I think you should forget about that part of your plan.
Legalize pot Goood... Kill off 3/4 of the population bad. Most people will see it that way.
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Post by Xavrael on Mar 24, 2009 18:49:40 GMT -5
because killing 3/4 of the world's population on purpose is wrong. End of story. You can't simply go up to someone and say, "So, would you like to die on friday or a saturday? Oh, and your family is gonna have to die too - we need more room for our hemp farms...".
Personally if I knew someone was attempting to do that to my family, i'd react rather violently against them and any who were part of that little plan. After all, we're Just making room correct?
No. it will take time but eventually I think colonization of other planets is what will eventually help the overpopulation issue. Nasa has been underfunded for quite some time now. When they were given a blank check, they put a man on the moon, heh.
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Post by Stoner Shadow Wolf on Mar 24, 2009 21:09:42 GMT -5
because killing 3/4 of the world's population on purpose is wrong. End of story. You can't simply go up to someone and say, "So, would you like to die on friday or a saturday? Oh, and your family is gonna have to die too - we need more room for our hemp farms...". Personally if I knew someone was attempting to do that to my family, i'd react rather violently against them and any who were part of that little plan. After all, we're Just making room correct? No. it will take time but eventually I think colonization of other planets is what will eventually help the overpopulation issue. Nasa has been underfunded for quite some time now. When they were given a blank check, they put a man on the moon, heh. Einstein defines your insanity quiet well. as doing the same thing(s) over and over and over again, expecting different results. Colonization will not produce any results contrary to it's past results. conflict. colonization is the source of many problems in this world, you think asserting our presence on ANOTHER world is a good idea?! you are a european mentalist, you believe colonization is in any way a good thing? well in any case, im glad you'd react violently, at least your drive to survive is intact, but you cannot continue to resist natural selection. Nature and nature alone will determine the victor between you & your family, and your assassin. now. define wrong. how is death, weather naturally inflicted, or deliberately inflicted, wrong? it is not up to us to decide when or who dies, no, but it is no more the victim's choice than it is the assailant's. We are but cells of a body (earth). if cells are preserved beyond their natural lifespan, they are considered cancerous. how can you not see the correlation between civilized development and cancer development? Now, picture your body... picture your body, covered in welts, that look like cities, covered with tiny little micro-organisms, constantly using your body's resources to perpetuate their own existence, without replenishing your body. do you think you'll like the pain they bring you? (regardless of where they came from) would you think of them as from your body, or as an infection? OR, are you going to dodge the question and continue to imply some sort of superior moral values and argue my point without addressing it directly, like you did my last questions?
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Post by KG on Mar 24, 2009 22:03:02 GMT -5
That is an interesting idea about colonizing other planets. It might be a step in the right direction.
I agree with what Xav said about there always being hope, and I am just filled with hope since we have Obama in the Whitehouse. There are massive projects being worked on right now to save the planet. WE are moving towards alternative fuels as quickly as possible, and reducing greenhouse gases. In the last 60 days many laws have been passed to help the environment. It is unprecidented how quickly he has gotten to work on that and other issues. He is cutting the waste from Government, and leveling the playing field between rich and poor. It is just amazing. It is all the benefits of a revolution without bloodshed, to have a successful election like this. I am litterally thrilled with all he is doing, and to think he has another 3 years and 10 months to do at least. Maybe another four years on top of that.
In responce to Stoner complaining that grass doesn't grow under the house... guess what? Now the grass, and other plants can grow on top of the house. Green roofs not only preserve plants, but also insects. Some endangered insects and plants are being cultivated on rooftops, and in Europe feeder insects and worms for birds are also being cultivated in hopes the robins will florish more.. and in the US the government is paying to put these gardens on the roofs of many large buildings in most cities. It is also being encouraged for private homes... and to be sure the concept will spread. Green roofs are definitely the way of the future.
Obama is working on the environment and the inequities in American life. I think things will be OK. We will learn new ways of doing things, and this world will be fine.
Also I would like to say something about projected population growth. Since the sixties people have been projecting population growth. I will say that although world population has grown since the sixties, it is NOTHING like what was prodicted. They always overshoot world population by billions when they talk about 20 years in the future, and they ALWAYS overshoot future US Population to a rediculous degree. I admit the population will probably rise, but not at those insane projected rate. I do not know why their figures are always off but they are. It causes a lot of alarmist reaction and I suspect that is the cause of it. At any rate on the world front, China, India and many other countries have reduced their birth rates considerably. The US is also making an effort.
Another point I wish to make is that modern civilization discourages birth rate considerably. It is not that the birth rate is higher now, it is that the infant mortality rate is lower. I for one think that is a good thing. Infant mortality is still too high in the US though. Most European contries have a much lower infant mortality rate. India's birth rate has dramatically reduced, but so has the mortality rate.
I do not agree with Stoner about archetecture at all. I think some buildings and homes are beautiful, and I respect the right of people to build whatever kind of home they want. A cottage nestled in the forest is lovely, and much more interesting to me, as an artist than just woods. Even a set of skyscrapers can be an attractive skyline, and it is much more compact than having as many individual homes, if people want to live that way. The beautiful think about Skyscrapers is that they make a city compact, and then when you get away from the city you still have beautiful forests, and lakes and open farm land.
I think that balance is important, and that there is a place for mankind in the world, and that we do have a right to build homes, and buildings, but we do need to make sure there is open land as well. We need to protect our national forest, and prevent oil drilling and strip mining in protected areas. We need to protect our oceans from oil spills, and etc.
It isn't that we don't care about the environment Stoner. It is just that we all have different priorites, and different interests other than just the environment. We also view the situation differently in general than you do. My personal top priority is to aleviate human suffering, and preserve human life... and animal life to a lesser extent. Preserving the planet is very important to me, but only in the context of mankind. If there are no people on earth then I cease to care about it... necessarily because I would not be here to care, but also in theory because I honestly don't care about anything except the people. The planet apart from humanity, and large mammals is of no importance to me at all.
I am not saying your goals are not important Stoner, just that everyone has different goals, and different ideas about how to achieve those goals. Sometimes one goal conflicts with another goal. for me the people are more important than the pristine beauty of the planet, and I figure that the earth will survive either way, and so will the people. It might not be as pretty or deserted the way you want it, but it will be OK. The planet is important to you, because you actually care about this rock floating in space. The planet is important to me, because I have to live here, and so do the rest of the people on it.,,, OH and my cats live here too.. so I really only care that much about the earth as a habitat for humans and animals.
Most importantly because I have faith in God, I believe that he will take care of us and the earth. That does not mean that we aren't responsible, and that we do not need to take care of things, but it does mean that God has the ultimate control.
It is not our place to reduce the population. We have no right to,other than by means of personal birth control. It is not our place to tell others how they are supposed to live. I think most people are happy living in modern society, and while changes need to be made in order to maintain the planet, those efforts are being made.
WE have some mutual goals to be sure, but we also have different interests as well. That is part of being a group of individuals. I do not want everything that you want, and you do not want everything that I want, and in the end it really doesn't matter what we want because we have no right or authority to impose our will on others directly.
You rant at people as if you think that we can do any more about it than you can. WE do not. David even if I agreed with you 100 percent across the board, which I don't, but if I did there is still absolutely no way I would be any more successful in changing the world in all the ways you said than you are, especially if I told them about your population reduction plan. That just blows the whole thing out of the water.
The only hope we have to change anything is through persuasion of vast numbers of people, and as long as you are telling people you want to kill 3/4 of the people on earth, no one is going to agree with you. If I argued the point no one would agree with me either. WE just can't do that. We can't let anyone do that. NO one would agree to it because it is... insane, wrong, bad, evil, monstrous... whatever word you want to plug in. It is Sick. NO that won't work. YOu have to figure out a way to fix the world with all of us still on it. If you do that, someone might actually listen.
Kim
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Post by Xavrael on Mar 24, 2009 23:17:03 GMT -5
Yes. it will provide a new start for those who decide to live off world. If the planet is habitable, then a new fresh start can begin for them.
And there is a distinct difference between then and now - Unless the planet is already inhabited by another people, no one is going to be getting pushed out.
Perhaps. But I was talking about a deliberate act by another to take away my right to living life the way i wish with my family.
See.. this is what I don't get about you. You go on and on about how you have a right to live your life as you want, how things should be natural and so on. but then you turn around and don't care if someone's life is taken?
What if someone wanted to kill *you*? Would you... Smile and say, "Of course you can kill me!" ? Do you think it's right that someone should be able to come to you and kill you without a moment's thought?
Do you not value your own life as others value their own? That intrinsic value is another thing that makes it wrong. Nature will run its course obviously, disease, a death of natural causes. But I will laugh at anyone who says anyone else can kill another person simply because they want to.
If you think it's right to be able to take another's life simply because, then you may want to get your head checked by a psychologist, just to be sure you don't have some sort of anti-social personality disorder because condoning the killing of a large group of people just because you don't *think* they should be there is cutting it very close.
If you want to fix overpopulation, then find away, but intentionally killing off any thing to accommodate that is simply pent emotions coming out in a very malicious manner, and is not an option.
No, we can't say how we're going to die, or when - But neither can anyone else set out to exterminate someone elses life just for the sake of taking it. They'd be denying the deceased the opportunity to live their life as they wish.
Biologically speaking, true. But now we're talking about people. Not microorganisms.
Because cancer has no purpose. the development of a civilization does. With progress comes set backs, with setbacks come solutions and with solutions, progress is made.
All cancer does is grow, randomly, choking out the very life of the thing it inhabits. If one had to ascribe a purpose to it, then it would be that.
People are not a cancer. People can think, feel, etc. Cancerous cells do not. Cancerous cells can be removed, or destroyed by radiation and chemo if caught ahead of time.
My point with that is simply this. Mankind might have been born of animals, but they are no longer *simply* animals. If it were not natural for mankind to expand as it has, it never would have expanded to the proportions it has. It's human nature to want to grow and have a better understanding of things.
It has no natural predator to keep it in check other than the diseases and things it itself creates, and the random act of nature.
no.. Mankind's destiny doesn't lie in walking around aimless, without purpose, purpose taken away from them by denying the very thing that drives them - the desire to create something new, to explore and investigate, to *BUILD*.
That is what make's humans different than your average animal. Like the God that created humanity in it's spiritual image, Humanity has taken up a few traits of the creator, and that is the desire to create and build, to progress forward and make things new. Whether or not you believe in a God, or that humanity was created in his image doesn't matter -
Human's find purpose in creativity. And whether you like it or not, given enough time, there will always be civilizations (barring mass extinction heh), unless they are forced not to.
you like to compare humanity and civilization to a lot of things that aren't Sentient.
Sure. They can expand and seem like some sort of virus, but it's born out of ignorance of a general people. Some may know and take advantage. Others may know and wish to fix it. But the general population may not know a damned thing.
People, unlike diseases and viruses, can think and feel, thus allowing the possibility of change. They can contemplate and plan. Just because you can look at a microorganism and know what it will do, does not mean you can do the same for humans because they simply are not the same.
You cannot compare the two and expect them to behave in the exact same way.
in any case:
I'm glad you continue to make assumptions without knowing why i say things. For instance, the off world colonization. People need more room. Earth, by it's size was technically supposed to be able to support only 6 billion people (last i checked). We're at 8 now. Finding other habitable planets (and having the means to get there) will change that.
Where as, even IF people went and jumped on your bandwagon, even IF 3/4 of the human population died off, it would be back. And then what? Everyone is living shoulder to shoulder, and the over crowding will once again spark wars for space and such until there is enough space again.
So in that instance, there would be a perpetual cycle of violence which would occur whenever there simply wasn't any more room. Nevermind the effects of constant battling, that's a different subject entirely.
Needless to say, it's common sense. You run out of room on earth, you go elsewhere.
If there are planets that can sustain human life out there that do not have other inhabitants already, then there is no reason why we should not alleviate the strain on earth by sending people who would like to go live on a new planet to said planet.
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Post by KG on Mar 24, 2009 23:37:17 GMT -5
Xav's insanity? Xav is not the one talking about genociding the human race! If Einstein is correct then you should definitely give it up Stoner. You've been trying to push your ideas on people with insane sounding rants for how long now? No one is buying now, and no one will buy later. As long as you refuse to try to make it sound sensible no one is going to listen. I am sorry but I try and try to get you to either: A) Drop this crazy crap and live your life. B) Make it stop sounding like crazy crap, and do what you can politically about the most reasonable of your goals... Legalization of hemp farming. C) Go and live by your own rules and be an example. D) Compromise your rules to something livable but stick by the better parts of your principles and goals. Why? I know you are wrought up and distressed, but your rants sound crazy. They look crazy and they kill your cause. Your ranting actually harms the chances for legalization, ecology and other causes you champion. It sickens people it costs not only your own credibility but the credibility of every movement you talk about. You can't live by your own rules, and you can't get anyone to listen to you cause your rant and say things that get you labled insane, instead of providing a good arguement. I had your plan all laid out and it didn't look that crazy at all, but then you had to start pushing the genocide. I am really glad you brought up the issue of sanity. I rarely do enjoy talking about sanity, because I am nuts, but you are one of the few people I know that are crazier than I am. I might talk to invisable people, but at least I don't want to kill over half the world. God you are insane. You act as if any of this crap that runs around in your brain is really going to happen. NO! No one is going to hunt anyone down and kill them. No one is ever going to listen to you if you are going to keep talking about mass murder and thank God everyone else in the world knows better. NONE of your ideas will get through as long as you keep and presenting the insane ones. No one is going to listen to you if you rant and cuss, and act like a jack ass. Victims? Assailants? What motivates these Assailants? Why do they want to kill their neighbors? Most people naturally care about others. Sometimes people commit robberies but even so only truely crazy people try to kill others for no reason, and thank God those kinds of people are not plentiful enough to kill that many people. Besides have you ever thought you might be one of the ones killed? Wouldn't it be ironic if the one who had the idea was the first one shot? No one is living beyond their normal lifespan. People have a right to live their lives the same as you. Actually that is natural. Disease is natural. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I do not see humanity or society as a disease of the earth, but I do see that most everything on this damned planet is diseased, and that isn't because of mankind. It is just the way it is. It has always been that way. Pine trees get pine weavles, and they kill the tree, unless man decides to kill the bugs. You cannot find a single tree in the forest that does not have bug eaten leaves. Most of them have some kind of fungus on them. Dogs have fleas unless they get dipped. All wild animals are eat up with ticks and fleas, and all manner of parisites. Fish even have parisites, and in the ocean small cleaner fish eat the parisites off the bigger fish. I think that is the way it is supposed to work. The earth is no pristine beautiful place with or without man. It is full if disease, insects, and fungus. Every creature, plant, and person is plagued with this stuff. It is NATURE that makes it that way, not the other way around. The earth is flawed, and that is not man's fault. IT was like that when we got here. When will you get it through your head that the earth is neither heaven nor eden and it never will be. Even without the people it is still gross. He's been answering your crazy questions as directly as possible. WHy can't you impersonate a sane person long enough to discuss this rationally. YOu are being an an insensitive prick. F**k you are an idiot! stop talking about Cancer. You are not the only one here with problems. You are just the only one here with the luxury of picking and creating your own problems. You have created every problem you have with your stupid goals. They are sick and retarded. Not of themselves, there is nothing wrong with saving the planet or legalizing pot... but your crazy plan, and your thinking you have a right to decide how the rest of the people on the earth life, even if they live. You cannot discuss your goals rationally and you can't deal with them rationally so the best thing you could do for the sake of your own sanity, decency, and general well being is shut up about them, forget about them, and never think of them again. That is my best advice. This stuff is not only ruining your life, it is ruining your personality and your soul. Why? Because you are letting it take you over. It is as I said before killing you, and this conversation just proves my point. There is nothing you can do about any of this, and the only thing you can do has the opposite effect, because you can't talk about it sensibly. You aren't even acting like you think you are a human being. You are just as guilty as the rest of us of destryong the planet. YOu have done just as much to cause it as the rest of us. You are not doing a damned thing to help the situaiton, and are in fact making it worse every time you talk to someone about it, because quite frankly everything you say just makes people want to go cut down a tree, and piss on the stump. The best thing you could do for your cause is become a republican and go tell everyone how evil pot is, and how we should ignore the ecologists, and do offshore drilling, and strip mining. Do it with the same angry voice that you talk about your cause now. Disagree with everything you belive in. Call the people who try to understand what you are talking about idiots, and dense and tell them to F**k off, and all the lovely phrases you like to throw around. Then to top it off Become a wealthy capitalist and make everyone hate you for your greed. It would work... It would work well. Much better than this. Anything you argue for is destroyed the minute you start talking.
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Post by lolretardslol on Mar 25, 2009 9:38:49 GMT -5
xav, you are a F**king idiot, and i am not going to address your retarded statements until AFTER you reflect on them and answer them from what you know of my perspective, however, considering how much of my point of view you have blatantly ignored, i am confident you will say some stupid shit about pot and how it must have damaged my brain.
the ONLY PROBLEM with all that is that humans are trying to be rid of the diseases without developing immunities, the civilized world hasa FOUGHT nature every F**king step of the way. and you act like that is NATURAL!
No, it's not man's fault that the world has natural selection, i blame man for trying in vain to dominate natural selection! it has only created more problems than it has solved.
you can plug your ears and scream "lalalalala i cant hear you" all you want kim, but the fact of the matter is i am only the person here willing to SEE the problem.
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Post by extreme on Mar 25, 2009 9:44:46 GMT -5
when the world gets this extremely out of hand, what makes you think anything short of an extreme solution will have any positive impact?
another quick fix to cure the world.
a bandaid will fix a broken arm, and aspirine will cure cancer, because that is easier and more rational as opposed to cutting off the arm to save the heart.
even though bandaids and aspirine arent the solution, and you're still gonna die a horribly painful and humiliating death, at least you still have the arm that infected you.
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Post by Xavrael on Mar 25, 2009 15:51:25 GMT -5
Why would I say anything bad about Pot? I haven't ignored your point of view, Stoner. I just don't agree with it. Belligerence aside - You just... don't seem to get it. No one is asking for a quick fix, (actually, I might even go so far as to say that killing off 3/4 of humanity is a quick fix). No one is saying to only change the little things. But no one is saying that we have to throw away centuries of knowledge gained just to do it all over again either. No one is asking for a bandaid. I just don't believe extremism is the answer either. Your ignorance as well as hypocrisy is truly frightening. You become a irate when ever someone does not agree with you or says that you are wrong, then you turn around and do it to others... amusing, and sad. You say you don't care if people follow you... and yet you're still here wasting your time, all while insulting others who have a different opinion than you. You've done an amazing job at alienating people who would have been your friends, and people who were close to you apparently. You say that you're the only one that can *see* but in the end you've only shown that you are the blind one, oblivious to the inherent value of living life happily because you can, not under some stringent set of rules. There are no rules to life, you simply live and love others. That's it. Do you *really* hate your life that much? Not working because of some trumped up excuse? Hating currency because of your inability to earn it through honest work? Which is really funny because in the end, even if currency were taken away, you would still have to work for your goods which you would trade for other goods.... which in essence is exactly what you are doing with the dollar. Only difference is, you can stick a dollar in your pocket. Working for food I can understand however. ------------- All in all, you're a damaged individual, Stoner. Damaged because of your own hatred for the world, which has poisoned you. Any good intentions you may have had have now been tainted. You can't harbor hatred and expect it not to leak into everything you do. Your wanting to commit genocide is a very good example of this. Go live your life stoner. With your conversation skills, you're never going to be able to get anyone to think anything of what you want done is a good idea. So live by example. If people want to try it, great. Otherwise, don't bother them. Check your attitude at the door. and just to point it out, you're being an asshole. No one likes an asshole. So that, coupled with your charming personality...yes. You're a real winner aren't you? You said it yourself. People are nothing. You, are nothing. And never will be. Because you're human, a virus infecting a large floating piece of rock in space covered with life. What a miserable world it would be if everyone believed what you did about people. The lengths people would go to change that would be startling. ----------------- You can believe whatever you want. You're approach to spreading it however, blows some major camel balls. by being, "Straight forward" (read: whiny bitch), you...well. You make others not care about anything you say, as KG said, they'd sooner cut down a tree and piss on it's stump...(was kind of funny seeing that from an irritated KG, but still). If you don't care if people buy into your little genocide plan, then why bother speaking at all? You're not helping yourself at all, and in the end, you might be unfortunate and find another extremist..but on the opposite end of the spectrum who would do you physical harm. You say kill the people, they say save them. but they may be flawed like you, thus, they may have a weapon and my try to kill you. I don't like you, but I also don't want you making some stupid mistake later on and getting yourself hurt because you don't know how to keep your mouth shut when it's obvious no one want's to hear you anymore. Personally, I hope you find your happiness in some way. But I'm finished arguing with you.
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Post by KG on Mar 25, 2009 22:22:50 GMT -5
What does it mean when Stoner calls you and idiot? You are just begging for the truth aren't you Stoner? You will not rest till you get our unfiltered unpolite opinion. OK here you go. I have listened to everything you have had to say... and then you say "think about it"... well I have. Not that it required a lot of thought, but I have devoted some time to it anyway. I hate judging people, but I am probably better qualified than anyone, at least by right of having the information, except God and your own mother. Your mother would likely agree with me, and you don't believe in God so... Here is the truth. You have wasted the early years of your life laying around bitching. Nothing suits you, and you think you deserve better. Yet you put absolutely no effort into anything. You are ignorant, by choice. You have a decent IQ but you throw it away, and due to your lack of knowldege, and your complete unwillingness to try to learn anything, whether from a book or a person or a website, but only a determination to argue with knowlege wisdom and even obvious facts, you have deprived your mind of input until it has utterly rotted. The things you think make sense don't. We all see it. Your ignorance it unequaled in the realm of people who are allowed to use the washroom alone. You haven't learned, because you think you already know everything. I assure you you know very little. and what you know you don't have enough information to put into perspective. It is no wonder you are utterly deluded, confused, and that your thought processes are skewed. You are aware there are issues, and you have heard about a few of them, and you actually read up on Pot. The rest you try to fake it on, but you dont' have enough general knowledge to base it on, so you come off looking stupid every time. You don't know the facts about anything. You think you have a solution to the problem, but you know absolutely nothing about problem solving. That much is evident from your life, where the first time you are presented with and obstical you scream "I CAN"T." THERE are actually steps to problem solving and they involve defining a single narrow problem... on at a time. Then you brainstorm to figure out possible solutions, and then you see which ones of those are actually posible, and of those you pick the best on. Your ideas would be marginally acceptable for the second step, but past that... NO all your ideas except for the pot thing should have been weeded out as unfeasable and undesirable. IN the first place you do not have the power to do it. IN the second place your solution is undesirable in every way. YOU are talking about a LOSE LOSE senerio. NO ONE WINS and the goal should be a solution that benefits everyone. Problem solving is not sitting around daydreaming about your perfect world, and defining every detail, cause chances are your perfect world is not any one else's perfect world. That is certainly not the case in your senerio. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would like your plan. It would suck. Another mistake you made in your problem solving is that problems that require the co-operation of others, has to include their input. If you want someone to help you, then you have to be willing to compromise with them on the process, the goal and the outcome. YOU just think you can force your hair brained ideas on other people... and you can't. Why because your idea is hair brained. What is to reflect on. It is utter stupidity, and as for your perspective, neither Xav, nor I can get our heads as far up our butts as you can. I am amazed at your agility, but do not care to try your perspective. You are blinded by your own shit. I have wondered, but I wouldn't blame pot. A lot of smart people smoke pot. You can act normal when you try though, but you can also act like a complete retard so I don't know. Anyway Xav didn't say a thing about brain damage, but I am... mostly I think it rotted from lack of use. There is another example of your ignorance, and you should know better. Tribal people have much less natural immunity than people who live in civilizations. Many many historical examples of this... How can you not know any of them. When you were sick I took you to the doctor. You ungrateful little toad. You mean I could have saved my 150 bucks and waited for you to develop immunities? Why didn't I think of that? Here is a picture of a happy child who lives in a third world country. They have not had medical care, or vaccinations. Here is how well their immunities are working. No one even knows what this shit is. Life expectancy for third world countries is very low, not because no one lives to be old, but because so many children and young people die of bizzare assed diseases. Insect borne pathogens, influenza, dyptheria, and other stuff that we don't even know what it is. The aids epidemic hasn't helped either. American Christians, and other humanitarians go over there and try to help them. They play catch up on people that are already near death. Without help these children would die. The fruther out into the jungle or desert these people live the more weird diseases they get. Nature is not purely Gaia. The physical condition is a curse on us all, and NO this is not and never will be Eden, or the World Tree or whatever you think it is. As long as we are in physical bodies and the world is solid we will be plagued with the imperfections of this plain. It isn't man's doing it is the way the earth was made. natural selection? We still have natural selection. Part of natural selection is partially... well actually mostly the choice of a mate that can survive in the current environment. That is why loosers like you have trouble getting and keeping chicks... well that and the fact no one wants to listen to your rants. No you are the only person here who is too stupid to understand that none of us rule the F**king world. WE can't change anything any more than you can. You are the only person here who is too lazy to research something before they go running their mouth... YOu are the only person who could look at this problem, not understand it, and then come up with a completely retarded plan, and a lot of changes no one wants that would just make things worse, and insist that people agree with you, and you are the only person here who wants to kill 3/4 of the population... Everyone hears you stoner, but no one agrees with you because you are a self made moron without a clue. You rant and bitch but you do nothing. You sit on your ass and bitch at those of us who actually have a life of some sort. I am aware of the problems. I was told when I was in JR HIGH that by the year 2000 the world would be completely covered by high rise buildings. There would be no where to live, and the whole world would be more crowded than Japan. Still people manage to live, even in Japan, and here well the stories about over population, were vastly overstated in my day, and I have no doubt that they are overstated now. Sure we are growing, but look at your figures for growth and cut that in half... judging from the information I was given in Jr High, and what has really happened that figure is still inflated. But I wasn't refering to any of that when I said you were an insensitive prick. I was refering to your insensitivity to other people's losses and sufferings, and what they are going through. YOU are dense as a F**kING BRICK, and no wonder you do not understand what is happening in the world. Some people have REAL problems, that they didn't make for themselves... think Stoner. NONE of us can do anything about this problem you think is so serious. NONE of us want to follow your plan because it is stupid, except for the hemp thing, and all of us realize there are environmental problems. WE just don't like your solutions. NO ONE else wants to live in a F**king TEEPEE! No one else want to kill or die. That whole idea is stupid. If you are really serious then volunteer to help a group that has a workable plan already that helps the planet. Go wash the oil off sea birds, go join the peace corps. or help the indians, but don't try to tell them how to run their country. That is their business. I gather they don't want to live in TeePees any more either, so don't try to force them into them.
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Post by KG on Mar 25, 2009 22:43:45 GMT -5
Xav,
I usually do not appolgize for the behavior of others but under the circumstances, where Stoner is too dense to realize he should, I feel that I must say, "I am sorry that Stoner is a jerk, and that he has said so many stupid, crude, and otherwise offensive things." As administrator, I feel responsible, and well... IDK... anyway sorry. I thought about repremending him or threatening him, or even banning him, but mostly... well I think that is what he wants.
Exactly. People who work everyday, provide sustenence for themselves and others, support a wife and children, and/or take care of their parents, instead of the other way around, are already being accountable. They are shouldering their responsibilities and it never occurs to them to do otherwise, because they clearly see their immediate obligations, are their primary responsibility. Everything else must come second. Children who help their parents do yard work or clean, or run errands for them, are also doing what they need to be doing. People who get involved in their communities, churches, charities, and in various organizations that actually try to improve the environment, are also doing their part for the world. People who get involved in political activism in a real way, and who go into politics, or become leaders of groups who try to make changes are also doing their part. People who pick up trash on the side of the road, or work as forest rangers, or firemen, or in hospitals, or any of the serving jobs in this world are also doing their part. People who do missionary work, or go to foreign countries to help the people, or go to New Orleans to build homes, and bring supplies, are also making a difference.
However people who have all the time in the world and choose to spend it sitting on their butt bitching... and people who don't feel a resonsibilty to help their parents, or get into a position where they could support a wife and kids, and yet wonder why they are lonely, need to take stock of their priorities. The world is full of work that needs to be done. For pay, or for volunteer. The world is full of oportunities to reach out to others, and to serve. Even if one can't get a job one can volunteer.
People who do not work whether for pay or volunteer, are not being responsible in any way shape or form. People who do not realize that they have an obligation to their families and/or to their community, don't need to even think about the bigger picture. They aren't even taking care of the corner of the world they were given.
People who shirk their REAL obligations in order to whine about what is wrong with society, are just wasting their time, and everyone else's.
Yes, and anyone can learn. Learning is the first step to doing anything useful. People who do not learn cannot solve problems, and lets face it either you are part of the solution or part of the problem. If you don't reserch an issue then how can you solve the problem. Obama said something in his press conference that really struck me. A reporter asked why he did not express his outrage at AGI immediately instead of waiting for two days. Obama replied, "Because I like to know what I am talking about." He was researching the situation completely, before he said a word. I think you could take a lesson from that Stoner.
Exactly, and Most people are basically glad to live in a civilized country. If anything they wish it was more civilized. That doesn't mean they aren't concerned for the environment though. Most people see the problems, but they aren't ready for " Stoner's final solution." LOL
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