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Post by Del on Dec 25, 2008 13:24:08 GMT -5
I've done a lot of meditation, but it doesn't effect me that way. I don't know why. Things like physical exercise helps. You are saying that if you stay focused on the breathing, instead of dropping that awareness once you are in the meditative state, it helps? I admit I go for the OBE or the visionary experience every time, as soon as it is available, and the awareness of breathing is replaced by the experience. So maybe if I kept awareness of the body instead of shuting it off, and trying to grasp that vision, at least some of the time, it would help pull me into the body? Thanks for helping. I will try some of the things you suggest. I appreciate it alot. Kim Zen....zazen...try Zen meditation. You're focusing too much on the fruits of meditaiton based on the small generalization of meditation. There's more to meditation than reaching OBE and visions. That's a very Gnostic way of looking at the body.... Zen, zen, zen. When a thought comes up see it and then focus back on the breath. No visions Kim, just the breathing. Sickness is associated with an imbalance in body and spirit. Getting back into ballance, use the breath to connect both body and spirit. Mind should take a back seat for the moment. Zen, zen, zen, Zazen!
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Post by KG on Dec 25, 2008 23:56:52 GMT -5
Yep... and I am starting to see the error of my ways. I see it as a life long character flaw. It is just like when I was in high school. In my sophmore year, I had my A in Biology, and my A in Latin, and all the while I was failing Algebra miserably, and drawing a murial on the desk in silent protest to having to take it... I couldn't think about it.. I couldn't make myself do it because it was so unearthly boring, and I couldn't force myself to even go there mentally. Everything else was A's and B's cause I was smart enough to bluff my way through those with minimal effort.
All my life, I've done what I was facinated with, whole heartedly, like a huge all consuming obcession. I also do what is fairly easy for me to accomplish, with minimal effort and good to average result. Those things that are boring and monotonous, which require hard work and no glory... well I usually don't do them unless threatened by something worse than the task itself. LOL
My current state is bad enough that I am forced to take some kind of action.
I also think that some of my withdrawal from this realm is repression. I knew I was repressing emotional pain, but since I have been coming back into my body, I am noticing ALOT of physical pain. It makes no sense that this physical pain only started a couple of months ago, and when I think back I realize that there have been times I felt this on a low level, and no doubt blocked it... the problem with blocking is that it blocks just about everything, unless I consciously concentrate on one area to allow sensation. Blocking pain is great when you absolutely have to keep going in spite of it, but to do it on and on for years, without even giving it much thought isn't wise. The thing is until this year I haven't realized it. Then when my elbow started hurting in a way that was hard to block, I started to loose my capacity to block any of it.
I've also been blocking the memory of my father's passing, as much as possible, along with a laundry list of other unpleasant things I'd rather not think about. I've blocked way too much though. It's sort of shorting out my brain in a way. Memory is a chain, and everything relates to a list of other things. So not only can you not think of what you don't want to think about, you have to shut out the things that relate to it, and so there are places in your mind you start to avoid. Areas of avoidance increase to the point you can't think. I've never been overly cerebrial except for matters of spirituality, and history as it relates to spirituality... overall I am obcessed with that to the point I don't think about much else anyway, short of what litttle thinking my daily life absolutely requires.
I have been coming back into my body more. It isn't pleasant though. My aches and pains have become hard to ignore, and everything else is failing, even my spiritual awareness. In times past physical exercise helped me get over these kinds of episodes, but it has been very hard to umster phsical energy.
Well I've been gnostic for 2000 years, so when you put it that way... well it makes sense. Actually gnostics despised the body, as corruption, as with everything else that was matter. They felt that their pure holy souls were trapped in unholy decaying tunics of flesh, and that their human condition was some sort of unnatural curse put on them by the Demurge. They felt that creation itself was a mistake, in that things should be like they are in the astral, not as they are in the physical, with so much effort, and disease, and they wanted to wipe out the human race by refusing to procreate, because they wanted to take the points of light (souls) out of poluted creation, and back into the spiritual realm.
I think I do have a lot of those kinds of feelings especially in my deeper subconscious instincts. I don't go quite as far in this life, and really I did enjoy my physical life this time... but not so much as I get older. I don't like my form since it isn't as fun to live in as it was when I was young.
I thought you were going to say Yoga exercises. I'm kind of relieved cause some of those hurt, and start me panting and gasping for air. Still it wouldn't be a bad idea, but maybe I should start with Zen and work my way up.
I've always tended to be unbalanced in that way, but it has become much more pronounced in recent years. Mind usually does take a back seat. Spirit has always ruled, but I realize that I need to revive my body, so that it will not pain me so much and be such a distraction. It is hard to do anything, even meditate with all these aches and pains.
OK so Zen. I'll give it a shot. Can't hurt, and might help. I've done it before, at least the meditations I have found so far, sound like the ones I cut my teeth on. I just got to the point I didn't need to count breaths, and as time continued breathing became less and less important to the process. I do cut off thought during meditation, that is easy enough... during my current meditations, mind and body both have to be still, and basically shut off. I can shut off the mind very easily. It shuts off automatically just like my body does, sometimes when I don't want it too by the way. Really I am having the same trouble with my mind as I am my body really.
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Post by Stoner on Dec 27, 2008 4:54:43 GMT -5
Yep... and I am starting to see the error of my ways. I see it as a life long character flaw. It is just like when I was in high school. In my sophmore year, I had my A in Biology, and my A in Latin, and all the while I was failing Algebra miserably, and drawing a murial on the desk in silent protest to having to take it... I couldn't think about it.. I couldn't make myself do it because it was so unearthly boring, and I couldn't force myself to even go there mentally. Everything else was A's and B's cause I was smart enough to bluff my way through those with minimal effort. All my life, I've done what I was facinated with, whole heartedly, like a huge all consuming obcession. I also do what is fairly easy for me to accomplish, with minimal effort and good to average result. Those things that are boring and monotonous, which require hard work and no glory... well I usually don't do them unless threatened by something worse than the task itself. LOL My current state is bad enough that I am forced to take some kind of action. I also think that some of my withdrawal from this realm is repression. I knew I was repressing emotional pain, but since I have been coming back into my body, I am noticing ALOT of physical pain. It makes no sense that this physical pain only started a couple of months ago, and when I think back I realize that there have been times I felt this on a low level, and no doubt blocked it... the problem with blocking is that it blocks just about everything, unless I consciously concentrate on one area to allow sensation. Blocking pain is great when you absolutely have to keep going in spite of it, but to do it on and on for years, without even giving it much thought isn't wise. The thing is until this year I haven't realized it. Then when my elbow started hurting in a way that was hard to block, I started to loose my capacity to block any of it. I've also been blocking the memory of my father's passing, as much as possible, along with a laundry list of other unpleasant things I'd rather not think about. I've blocked way too much though. It's sort of shorting out my brain in a way. Memory is a chain, and everything relates to a list of other things. So not only can you not think of what you don't want to think about, you have to shut out the things that relate to it, and so there are places in your mind you start to avoid. Areas of avoidance increase to the point you can't think. I've never been overly cerebrial except for matters of spirituality, and history as it relates to spirituality... overall I am obcessed with that to the point I don't think about much else anyway, short of what litttle thinking my daily life absolutely requires. I have been coming back into my body more. It isn't pleasant though. My aches and pains have become hard to ignore, and everything else is failing, even my spiritual awareness. In times past physical exercise helped me get over these kinds of episodes, but it has been very hard to umster phsical energy. Well I've been gnostic for 2000 years, so when you put it that way... well it makes sense. Actually gnostics despised the body, as corruption, as with everything else that was matter. They felt that their pure holy souls were trapped in unholy decaying tunics of flesh, and that their human condition was some sort of unnatural curse put on them by the Demurge. They felt that creation itself was a mistake, in that things should be like they are in the astral, not as they are in the physical, with so much effort, and disease, and they wanted to wipe out the human race by refusing to procreate, because they wanted to take the points of light (souls) out of poluted creation, and back into the spiritual realm. I think I do have a lot of those kinds of feelings especially in my deeper subconscious instincts. I don't go quite as far in this life, and really I did enjoy my physical life this time... but not so much as I get older. I don't like my form since it isn't as fun to live in as it was when I was young. I thought you were going to say Yoga exercises. I'm kind of relieved cause some of those hurt, and start me panting and gasping for air. Still it wouldn't be a bad idea, but maybe I should start with Zen and work my way up. I've always tended to be unbalanced in that way, but it has become much more pronounced in recent years. Mind usually does take a back seat. Spirit has always ruled, but I realize that I need to revive my body, so that it will not pain me so much and be such a distraction. It is hard to do anything, even meditate with all these aches and pains. OK so Zen. I'll give it a shot. Can't hurt, and might help. I've done it before, at least the meditations I have found so far, sound like the ones I cut my teeth on. I just got to the point I didn't need to count breaths, and as time continued breathing became less and less important to the process. I do cut off thought during meditation, that is easy enough... during my current meditations, mind and body both have to be still, and basically shut off. I can shut off the mind very easily. It shuts off automatically just like my body does, sometimes when I don't want it too by the way. Really I am having the same trouble with my mind as I am my body really. learn to listen more and more every day, you can never be the best listener, you can only become better than you are/were. part of zen is experiencing without mind of what you experience. to experience with mind of the experience is as if to try to respond to it. be zen by not responding, just listening. listening should BE your response. that is why it is zen. Although zen can and will be somewhat different for everyone and there is no all defining way to address zen... it simply is... like the wind, but not like the wind. a potentially helpful aide might be the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, read not as though you were reading about martial arts, but as though you were reading about thinking, about awareness, about learning, for that is the message Lee wanted to tell. not how to perfect the art of fighting... but to perfect the art of learning how to BE.
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Post by Kata Samoes on Dec 29, 2008 9:36:51 GMT -5
I will speak to Gary, he'll know what to do to help you.
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Post by Del on Dec 29, 2008 11:03:03 GMT -5
I will speak to Gary, he'll know what to do to help you. That is another option...
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Post by KG on Dec 29, 2008 21:06:53 GMT -5
Thanks Del,
I appreciate what you have said, and I did feel better after doing the very simple breath meditation I found on line. It didn't feel like meditation, but at least I felt fully oxygenated, and I slept well that night. Those two things alone made a huge difference in how I felt. I am really trying, and my new years resolutions are numerous this year... mostly they amount to working harder, and pushing myself more instead of wimping out cause I am tired. Also taking care of myself and exercising more.
I am going to stick with the breathing thing and read the book you recomended. Bear has a copy around here somewhere.
Kata,
Thank you so much for thinking about Gary and I think if you could speak to him, you could find out what is really going on. He tends to be too gentle with me, and there are things he won't tell me, for fear of my reactions. Plus sometimes I have trouble hearing him clearly, at least lately. I would greatly appreciate if you could talk to him, and let me know whatever it is I need to know in order to get well.
Kim
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Post by Del on Dec 30, 2008 22:58:11 GMT -5
Thanks Del, I appreciate what you have said, and I did feel better after doing the very simple breath meditation I found on line. It didn't feel like meditation, but at least I felt fully oxygenated, and I slept well that night. Those two things alone made a huge difference in how I felt. I am really trying, and my new years resolutions are numerous this year... mostly they amount to working harder, and pushing myself more instead of wimping out cause I am tired. Also taking care of myself and exercising more. I am going to stick with the breathing thing and read the book you recomended. Bear has a copy around here somewhere. Kim Do not get consumed with the deeper teachings of Zen, Just focus on the breath for now. That is all you need to do. You see a thought, look at it, and then let it go. Do not focus on anything else but the breath. If your mind wanders, comes back to the breath. A good breating meditation is using the breath and counting to ten. For each breath count to ten and then start again at one, and each time you find your thoughts wavering, start all over again at one counting up to ten and then back down to one, for each breath. Start there first...
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Post by KG on Feb 3, 2009 8:59:01 GMT -5
Thank you Del,
You know me all too well. In the past the deeper teachings of everything have been all I looked at. I have been very remiss about little details like breathing in zen, the exercises and postures of yoga, and anything that isn't pure knowledge or pure energy work. My attitude of just looking for the interesting stuff has been a mistake.
LOL again I thought that would be hard for me, but I managed, mostly. The only thing that was hard about it is that I have had flu and Bronchitis a lot this winter, and so I cough a lot when I am first starting the exercise.. but that is the blessing of the exercise too though, cause it helps the bronchitis to heal, much better than just surviving on half a breath, like I normally tend to do with bronchitis.
This work has pulled me into my body a lot, and made me feel better, physically. All that in spite of the fact I keep catching cold. (I do not know why our family has had so many colds this winter) At any rate the breathing works. I would have thought something like that would be fairly useless. I mean I breath all the time, so what would be the big deal. It does help though.
I am having a good bit of trouble figuring out how to get that many numbers in, in a breath. Do you have to count really fast? It feels fast. It feels good other than that though. Hard to imagine that something so simple could help.
Thanks Raquel,
Kim
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