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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 7, 2006 21:33:17 GMT -5
a depression board, that might prove helpful for me! i've been depressed (as hell) ever since i lost my hearing, though i've gotten over that, my hearing loss still manages to weigh down on my life in general, and causes more problems that i really need... always hopeful for the best... maybe that's my problem? seeing as how my hopes are always crushed... that hurts, but i think i've grown numb to it...
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Post by KG on Jan 7, 2006 23:42:52 GMT -5
I am very sorry about your hearing loss. That is very sad, and it must be difficult to deal with. I know that having hope can be disappointing, but being hopeless is even worse.
As far as depression, Buddha, the Alchemists, and Karl Jung, just to name a few believed that depression was a very important step on the path to enlightenment.
Buddha himself was deeply troubled when after being raised as a wealthy young prince, he encountered a begger. He devoted years to understanding the meaning of suffering. I think that a lot of what he went through was a sort of depression, that evolved into his awakening.
In many spiritual practices, dark night of the soul, is known to come just before awakening. I do know that spiritual people are prone to depression, intense feelings of responsibility towards the well being of others, and whole host of problems that our more materialistic and shallow neighbors just don't have. I wanted a place where we can talk about these things. and work through them together.
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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 7, 2006 23:48:53 GMT -5
ouch that sounds too accurate so what can i do?
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Post by KG on Jan 8, 2006 1:16:22 GMT -5
Well of course that is a complicated question. Buddha worked on it for years. Even though he was a prince who had every luxury at his desposal, he knew that one day he would have to be king and make wise decisions that would affect people far less fortunate than himself. He wanted more than anything else to be a wise king, and he saw in a flash of that beggers face that his ancestors had not cared about these people and he did.
He left his palace, and his familly. He sought out great men of wisdom, and traveled the world. He suffered many hardships. He shunned his own wealth, and denied his own identity, as he traveled his own country, allowing himself to appear to be a begger. He even joined a group of monks who denied every desire of the body. He fasted to the point of starvation, and did all that they said to attain wisdom. He learned, but still he didn't have his answer. He kept searching. Finally he returned home, but he would not come inside the palace. He sat down under a tree, and he prayed and meditated. He said that he would not move from that spot, or eat so much as a crust of bread until he was able to understand. He was there a very long time, and nearly starved, but eventually he got his revelation, and his awakening.
It isn't an overnight thing, and I am not there yet either, but for me, as far as I have gotten so far... it is a matter of letting go of what I thought I was, and wanted to be. Accepting that I am_______ ... fill in the blank, and it's opposite at the same time, and yet I am neither of the two for a whole list of things, that I wanted to be and feared I wasn't. That has helped me more than anything I have done so far. Dropping the illusion of the ego, because it just wasn't true for me any more really helped. I did feel a lot better after that, but I still have problems.
Prayer helps, meditation helps, reading books like the Gita, and the words of Christ, and the sayings of Buddha helps. I am going to publish a web course on the other site, that will help.
Balance of Body Mind and Spirit helps but it is hard to achieve. I have tried, and in the past I have done better at it than I have recently. The problem is that people now days tend to be more mentally developed. Some are spiritual, and some are physical, but very few have a balance of the three. We get a lot of mental stimulation in the world, but since we no longer need to exert ourselves to surivive we tend to neglect the body. I mean why walk seven miles to town, if you can drive. Yet it was those slow patient walks that kept our ancestors sane and healthy. A long walk clears the mind, strenghtens the body, and frees the spirit, but people are so hung up on time, and efficiency, and honestly laziness, that they just don't walk, and even if they do it isn't the same country as our ancestors walked. Our busy streets, and even the country roads, don't allow for a lot of peace. Going for a long and relitively relaxed slow nature walk at least three times a week does a lot of good... even an exercise bike in a quiet room is better than nothing. I learned that I could meditate and ride a stationary bike at the same time... I mean I could get into a meditative state, and vision while I rode. How else could someone endure something as boring as a stationary bike?
Fasting is good, provided you understand the principles. If you aren't going to eat at all, then don't eat. Do drink plenty of water, but not soda or juice... that stuff will burn your stomach if you are empty. Growing kids should fast very sparingly. Adults in the prime of life can go much longer. People with eating disorders, or serious health problems should not fast. People on medications which they have to take should not fast for long. A fast can be a day, a few days, and up to a month, but I don't recomend the month for someone who hasn't tried it before. The body has to get accustomed to it. Honestly i haven't fasted in years, for various reasons. Honestly I never found it that helpful, but a lot of people sware by it.
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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 8, 2006 2:12:34 GMT -5
that's largly the source of my depression, humanity, society, civilization, technology... i dont feel confident that i can just walk away from it all like buddah, largly because of my hearing... but i want to, ever so badly... i just cant do it alone, yet i have no one, i mean absolutely no one, i have no friends, and my family is too busy surviving by means of civilization and technology. my dad is addicted to computer gaming, and my mom is so caught up in bills that she cant stop working. as badly as i want to help her get out of debt, money is part of the problem to begin with, and i just cannot help my depression at all by associating myself directly with money, i feel bad enoug h that the food i eat required money, and that the internet i make my desperate cries for help on requires currency to allow me to use it. but i need someone, someone to help me be free of humanity as it is now, to return to nature, and live off the land. i'd do it alone if i were confident, and didnt fear the lonliness which i already suffer... although i had temporarily eased the lonliness when i was with monique, but long distance relationshits dont work, and by visiting her, i made the whole deal worse, partly because of my impaitence, and partly because she was too attatched to her parents, and partly because her parents threatoned to disown her (not so directly, but it basically transelates to that) if she didnt stay in school and earn money and blah blah blah, anti-david stuff... i cant just let go of my beliefs, that's depressing as hell alone, but if i keep trying to retain a sense of justice in my life, im never going to find anyone nor am i ever going to find happyness... it's a huge catch 22 here... i dunno... maybe i should quit? just go for it and die alone in the wilderness in meditation... at least i have a chance to find happyness that way... i need some guts...
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Post by KG on Jan 8, 2006 10:59:12 GMT -5
Well one has to survive by whatever means possible. Sometimes practical matters have to be handled and delt with, before one can enter the spiritual quest full time. At that stage it has to be a balance. It is actually more rewarding to grasp the practical matter, as part of the quest, than to try to isolate the spiritual. You can't abandon anything, even if you feel abandoned yourself. You have to embrace your family, your spiritual quests, and your own mental, physical, and emotional well being at the same time. I get into a lot of trouble when I isolate my spiritual life from other aspects of my life. My family gets into trouble too. Your life is a unit, it may have different parts, but you cannot neglect all the other areas and only focus on one.
I agree that you cannot abandon your family, and doing so would appear to be more of a running away at this point. I think you would get a lot of guilt and bad karma if you did less than your absolute best to help your family pull out of this. My spiritual life always picks up when I get involved in some objective in the physical realm, like trying to help people, and connect with them. When I withdraw for long periods, at first I seem to advance, but then I realize I am deluded and in trouble because I am not going towards something I am running away, using my spirituality as an escape and in that way I am no better than your gaming dad. I escape for a little while when I can, but more than that... which is always a draw, can be harmful to your spirit and the spirits of others who look to me for help.
Loving your family would dictate that you help in whatever way possible. Helping your mom would be a great way to connect with her. I mean even little things, like your mom coming home and finding the house cleaned, and her laundry done, would let her know that you are still at her side. Your movement might actually pull your dad out of his video game trance too. Sometimes blessing others can be very rewarding. I hate housework very badly, but I have to do it... I am slack I admit, and pretty clueless on organizing stuff, but I try.
It sounds like your mother is facing her fear, and trying to meet the needs of her family. Your father is in denial and using the games to avoid thoughts that he cannot deal with square on. There is nothing wrong with what your mom is doing and I admire her courage, but I don't condemn your dad either. With the right encouragement, he might eventually pull out of his own emotional crisis.
In eastern tradition they find spiriutal meditation in physical, menial activities. I mean something simple like washing the dishes, waxing the car, or doing yard work can give you a more active meditation than standing still. Nothing in the world puts me more in touch with myself than mowing the grass. It is the best meditation in the world. It is active, but at the same time it is a dialog, with my thoughts, memories, and spiritual connections.
Also there is nothing in true spiritiuality that prohibits gainful employment. Actually the work of an artisan or craftsman involved in creativity is a very traditional spiritual persuit. It is perfectly acceptable to accept money for things you make, and it can be a wonderful release of bound up energies. Living by the work of your hands is honorable. So if you can find something you can do that fits in with your skill set, or with a skill set that you want to develop, you could help your mother in that way. I know that you have a limitation with your hearing, but there are many things you could do that would be rewarding for you.
Well being phobic of money isn't goint to help... Money is just a fact. It isn't who we are it is just what we need to eat. LOL It is no big deal, to make money, but not making money makes living difficult. Doing even a little in that area makes you feel better, because you are facing and solving the problem instead of avoiding it.
Even that is going to require money to buy the land. There aren't a lot of homestead rights available in the USA anymore. IN order to escape the system, you have to first understand it, and conquor your fear of it.
Well, lonliness is something that is only eased by security. When we feel secure we don't need others in a negative way, but we are drawn to them out of a genuine interest, and they are drawn to us. That is much better.
Try the course. I am going to post it next week. I was reading over it and it is what you need. I mean when I look at it I want to re-write it... that always happens, but if you can overlook some of the klunky catch words, and preachy style...(in places it looks like I was possessed by a telavangelist) the actual message will help. I belive in this method, and I guess I was just enthusiastic. I think you will find the methods will give you the courage you need to take care of your family, while you grow spiriutally.
I know that what I have said is hard, and I understand about anti-materialism, but like you said even the most monastic, simple and basic life reqires some money, and you cannot survive without it. There are plenty of simple tasks and creative efforts that could provide enough of this substance to at least carry your own weight, and relieve the concern your feel for your mom. Who knows maybe if you start to make the effort to help your mom, it might inspire your dad. In addition you do have a lot of inner wisdom, and perhaps you could communicate with your father, and help him with whatever is eating at him.
I know it is more fun to deal with people whom you don't know. I run into that too, but charity begins at home. That word doesn't mean what it used to it means that love begins at home, concern begins at home, and compassion begins at home. If you are lonely reach out to the person next to you, and try to help them. Connect with your parents on whatever level you can, and throw your heart into helping them and feeling them where they are at. Then rise above those emotions, and try to find a solution. Doing that will help you progress more spiritually than any fancy meditation excercise in the world, but you can use your spiritual exercises to give you courage to do this.
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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 8, 2006 15:50:47 GMT -5
im not neglecting anything, but im also in a position where i cannot take care of my physical life, the catch 22. about money and the system... i do understand the system, i dont fear, i absolutely hate it. i cannot tolerate this system of life, it is so corruptive in so many ways. it largly promotes lazyness, lazy mindedness and ignorance, and even bad karma. and money doesnt help any of this in any way of the word, in fact it is the blood of this corrupt system! the government is the heart of the problem, pumping taxes in and out. im sorry, but there's simply no way i can associate myself with money any more than i already do, which is too much already IMO. ... this really isnt helping cant someone just take my place? i dont want to exist, it's just too much at this point
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Post by KG on Jan 8, 2006 17:20:57 GMT -5
I didn't mean that you were neglecting anything, only agreeing with what you said. You were saying that you can't take off like Buddha did... so it seems that if you are confronted with a problem, then you must find some way to solve it. I was also saying that you should try to help your parents in whatever way you can. I was not aware of your stance on the monitary system, as totally taboo for you.
That certainly makes finding a solution harder, but nothing is impossible. Close to impossible though, and the solution will require more creativity. If you are correct in your understanding of your calling, and values in this life, then there is also a way to make that work. I mean just saying I don't believe in doing this or that, is one thing, but if you truely are not supposed to, then a way will be provided where you don't have to... but you will have to find that little slot in the cosmos which allows you to survive, and prosper, without compromising your values.
Overall you need to know what the plan for your life is. I mean we all have a dharma, and you need to find out what yours is. There is a plan and purpose for your existance, and yours sounds like it might be complex.
You feel a responsibility towards your parents, and a desire to be with Monique. You also have a basic need to surivive. Helping your parents, and having a future with Monique, or even your basic survival seem, at least on the surface to require money. Your morals, ethics and every fiber of your being are opposed to attempting to aquire this money. There is that huge catch 22.
I was only suggesting that you help your parents in whatever way you can, not realizing that you had such an ideological conflict. I just thought you meant you were attempting to gain the courage to try, and unsure about your abilities... sorry for the un warrented pep talk. I just misunderstood... but you could do it if you wanted. That was my main point. I mean you are bright and capable, and being deaf is something you are smart enough to work around if that was your ownly problem.
If you want to avoid the system, I have heard there are ways to stay out of the system, and ways to disappear right off the grid... but you still have to find a way around the system, even if you want to avoid it, cause it is everywhere.
I agree... totally, but I don't know how to fix it either, especially from where you and I are sitting. I've been over this in my mind so many times, though I am sure not exactly from your POV. IT sounds like your abhorance for the system is even greater than my own. Personally I can work with money. IT doesn't bother me, to recieve money for my work. I didn't realize your position on it sorry.... I didn't understand that part of your ideology... and still don't know exactly how that would work.
The system just exists. WE can try to avoid it, but I really have no clue how to do that. It is believed that the system can be outsmarted, or out manuvered, or even be brought down by some kind of reform, evolution or revolution.
That might involve joining some cause, and probably being disappointed by the leadership of such a cause. Historically speaking one corrupt system is always replaced by another corrupt system to infinity.
There is no relief, and there have been very few incorrupt systems in the history of the world. The only non corrupt system I know of, may have been native American tribes, or some other small tribal groups of people, but as soon as you start having nations with thousands or millions of people you have corruption, persecution, class systems, and all the nasty elements you see in this society.
The system just seems inevitable to me and something that just has to be worked around. I don't know how an escape from it is possible... though I really wish it was. Honestly I would prefer anarchy too at times. I wish basically that people would be able to make goods they need, and trade them among each other, with a spirit of helping and co-operation. Some small groups do that, but it doesn't seem to work on a large scale, and unfortuantely the world has gone large scale.
Yep, the Government is the problem alright, but the government is always the problem... well except when the problem is some powerful religion which joins forces with a government.
OK. I am not arguing, but if not money, what? There are communes, still I suppose, and even cults based on eastern religion... but it would be totally nieve to say that they aren't involved in money. So they are part of the system too, in some strange way.
Stoner, I think you already know the answer to these questions. This is your life, and you do have to live it yourself... well there is perhaps an option I have heard of... It involves spirit hosting a disincarnate soul, and letting him take over your life, while you take his place on the other side. I just mention that as a clarification, not a suggestion. I really don't think that is a good idea. It basically amounts to suicide. I only mention it to make a point. Anything is possible, so be careful what you wish for. In general you are here for a purpose, and it is up to you to discover what that purpose is.
Seeing your POV is a kind of catch 22. It looks to me like you will either have compromise, starve to death, or be really really creative with your solution. I suggest we try the third option first. So what exactly are the conditions of your stand off with money. What exactly would be allowable in your system? Can you work and help others? Maybe if you just started trying to help others, they would give you what you need in return, like doing good deeds for people or something and then they would take care of you when you needed things?
Overall I don't understand completely how your life can work within the confines of your system, but then I don't understand your belief system, completely either. Possibly you could explain more about this.
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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 8, 2006 17:54:20 GMT -5
ok firstly, there's no need to apolagize it was an easily misunderstood thing. and it's really not money itself that bothers me so much as it is the taxes and corperate CEOs that spend it; the war in iraq, and CEO paychecks so they can buy their mansions and airports. money isnt so much the problem as taxes and corperations, i could tolerate money back in the 1900's that wouldnt have been hard at all. there were no wal marts, no mcdonnalds, there was no huge oil company, no pharmacutical corperation, people could get what they needed almost for free, in fact, because everything they needed was largly grown. i totally wish to join a tribal native american village somewhere on a reservation and just be able to live off the land and not have to worry about the governemnt and stuff, but i sincerely doubt that such a thing still exists anymore, i fear that even that has fallen Monique and i broke up a couple years ago, i turned out to be too much for her... i'd like to find a creative way to get through this, but honnestly, i jsut dont want to be, i dotn want to have any sembelance of awareness or consciousness, it's not worth it, there is nothing to come of it edit: oh yeah, and i actually kind of like my hearing loss... i cant hear what people are sayingworth a crap, but i can hear WHERE everything is, quite easily. i can tell you what direction a sound came from with ease and there's not much people have to say these days that's worth listening to anyways! lol all the fufilling stuff is online, for me anyways... like i said, there are no people in my life, except my parents really... and not being able to hear takes it's toll on meeting any new people...
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Post by ~Sephity~ on Jan 8, 2006 18:06:57 GMT -5
I have some...minor...answers to having the food provided by money for you. 1. grow your own herbs(for cooking) 2. grow your on plants(veg. etc.) That could help a little bit more for your food prob.
-shit, have to go sorry!
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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 8, 2006 18:16:16 GMT -5
lol yeah i want to, but i dont exactly have any gardens available to me... lol and i totally passed up the chance(s) when i was living with my mom... there was a community garden that they would till up the compost pile there every year and people could make plots for their vegetables. i think my biggest problem, then, was that i was too in-to playing videogames and trying to enjoy life that i was too lazy to actually do anything in the garden. i need to be completely removed from civilization if i really want to do this. i know myself too well, if there are computer games and internet or television around, you can bet your ass im not going to dicipline myself and sit down and meditate, garden, or stretch and exerscise... if only i could find a place where they still lived outdoors and lived off the land
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Post by ~Sephity~ on Jan 8, 2006 19:02:06 GMT -5
*Cough* Amish *Cough* Anyways, I know how you feel. I'm a gamer.
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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 8, 2006 19:32:37 GMT -5
hahaha i wouldnt particularaly mind the amish, but i dont think they would be too terribly tolerant of me... i dont know, only one way to find out i guess...
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Post by KG on Jan 8, 2006 20:12:05 GMT -5
I am sorry too Stoner. I have to admit my feelings are colored by a little dejavu. It would actually be interesting to know your POV, because about 20 years ago, I was Monique. Actually I was Kim, and my Stoner's name was Tim. Of course that isn't fair, and you and Tim are two very different people. I am just sorry it didn't work out for you and Monique either. I didn't realize at first how powerful that fleeting thought of familiarity was in my emotions. I may have been harsh without realizing it. i didn't mean to be. It was just a painful memory. I dated him for about five years. We were in love, and we wanted to get married, but he wouldn't hold a job. He kept quitting and getting fired, and I tried to be understanding, but it was obvious he just wasn't going to work. Then he started spouting a lot of stuff about how his dad was a slave to the man. The way I saw it his dad shelled out about $12,000 - $20,000 a year just for Tim's intertainment... you know, beer, pot, concerts, vacations with me a couple times a year. His dad even paid for our dates. I loved that guy, but his opinions seemed so hypocritical. He wasted more money than I could dream of making, while his political views became more and more extreme and were all slanted to promote the fact that he wasn't going to get a job... ever. I even offered to let him be my house husband... cause I did love him, but I wanted him to agree to stay on a budget, and keep the house clean, and watch the kids while I worked. He refused, and said it was unfair to expect him to do all that. He wanted to be free to party during the day. He also cited his strange principles as why he couldnt' do that. When he said no, despite the fact we were engaged, and had been for years. I went off the air totally. He never forgave me for loosing my temper, and yelling at him. As far as I know he still hates me, and that is a big difference with you too. You still love Monique. Anyway I see that you are not like Tim. It was totally wrong of me to draw that parallell, but it has been in the back of my mind since you first mentioned Monique in the PM... I just felt for her, and when you said you still loved her, I just wanted to make you understand what you should do to get her back. I assumed she felt the same way I did, which may not be true at all. I see you have real convictions and aren't trying to get out of work like Tim was. Or refusing to lift a finger to help anyone. I guess us old ladies just have baggage. It isn't your fault... but it did rake open an old wound, and I guess I should just be honest about it. I agree with you totally about the war, the government, the corporations, and the CEO's but maybe you could get involved in having your own little business. That was all I was suggesting. You probably wouldn't even have to actually pay any taxes, unless you made a lot. I don't know what skills you have... I mean you could do anything from cleaning out gutters, landscaping, or doing other odd jobs, to being a goldsmith in your basement, making jewelry to sell on e-bay. I don't know what you like to do, but I am sure you can do something that wouldn't compromise your principles. Maybe you could get a job in a little resturant that was competition with McDonalds. Or since you have a computer, you could do advertising and make flyers, or a little newspaper that would help small business. That is actually my old job in my home town. I put together a things to do paper which promoted local businesses, and I sold advertising very reasonably. All the businesses were helped, and I was building a pretty good nitch for myself, when I had to quit cause of the second baby. Anyway I think something like that actually helps break down the system, in a small way, by giving the little guy a chance.
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Post by stonerwolf on Jan 8, 2006 21:01:41 GMT -5
lol yeah, i'm not that lazy, i'd keep the house clean and all, i mean it's the least i can do y'know? although i really (REALLY) tend to procrastinate, i try to get stuff done... sorta... lol
the biggest problem is not so much the direct taxes, but the 'hidden' taxes...
the taxes landed on the grocer, i cant buy taxed food, and it's bad enough i EAT taxed food...
the problem i have is nothing should have to be AFFORDED. yeah, you should work to earn your keep, but the problem is you should actually DO THE work to get what you want, IE you cannot BUY things, you must MAKE or GROW them YOURSELF. there's nothing wrong with bartering for things you need but cant work for yourself, but to just simply do one tiny little thing, and save money to buy everything you want is just rediculous.
small buisnesses are great... untill they expand... expansion of buisness is only SOMEWHAT a good thing... and even then, i am leery toward such. it becomes corperation with expansion, and the corperation is just a materialism monarchy if you look at it.
it's a subliminal form of controll, by controlling what we want, you controll our lives by controlling how we must acquire our wants and needs.
really, i just dont think i can get a job or work with currency at all.
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