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deamons
Jun 14, 2007 11:17:40 GMT -5
Post by Wunderkind on Jun 14, 2007 11:17:40 GMT -5
Yes. Depends on the culture and religion. Either or. It's like asking if mankind is good or evil. 1) Evil and good are merely flimsy concepts anyone can twist. 2) Just because people like Hitler are around doesn't make the human race evil, but just because we have people like Gandhi doesn't mean the entire race is good either.
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deamons
Jun 15, 2007 19:30:58 GMT -5
Post by ~Sephity~ on Jun 15, 2007 19:30:58 GMT -5
...and according to your point of view, Hitler could be a protagonist, while ghandi could be an antagonist, just depends on what you beleive and how you choose to see things.
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deamons
Jun 15, 2007 23:51:21 GMT -5
Post by KG on Jun 15, 2007 23:51:21 GMT -5
Interesting that we are having thought provoking conversation. I think I will just ramble on this one... I don't pretend to know everything, but I know how I feel, so I will just talk about that.
I can't see hitler as the good guy... not possible for my mind to stretch that far, but yes I am sure that logically a person could take that POV. Generally I can see that point with humans, and animals especially. Ants aren't bad, just cause they want to be in our soda can, and maybe we are bad for squashingt them, but I don't like ants in my soda... does that make me evil? Probably to the ants. Sharks aren't evil, just big hungry and they don't care about us, any more than I care about the ants... if as much.
People are like that with each other too... and that seems bad to me, but maybe it is just nature. Is it natural to run rough shod over others to get what you want? Is it just some inherant instinct for leaders of countries to try to genocide minorities, and wipe out whole races of people?
We all speak of Hitler as if he were alone, in history as the singular perpetrator of Genocide, but he isn't. There have been many before and since who were just as bad. The Catholic church of the dark ages was brutal and bloody. They also sought to wipe out Jews, and certain religious sects. The protestant church of England burned Saint Joan at the stake. The English genocided the Irish for hundereds of years, and totally devistated India with centuries of occupation, and exploitation of their resources. The American Government genocided the native Americans, and during WWII they persecuted persons of German decent, and put American Citizens of Asian decent in concentration camps... were they better than Hitler. We fight concentration camps with concentration camps. WE fight bizzare religions with even more bizzare religious practices. We combat torture with torture, we seek confessions with electric shock as our ancestors did with the rack and the wheel... and for some reason there is always that sexual connotation, with these self righteous self proclaimed holy men, and men of honnor and freedom... How is it that the inquisitors used their extreme sadomasachistic fetishes to save mens souls? Do we imprisson and torture to prove democracy is better... and in the end who is better? There is no governement or culture that is clean. No one who is blameless among the powerful, and the only thing standing between blame and the powerless, is the fact they don't have the power to commit atrocity themselves. We are all evil... and yet we are all good.
We all have our moments of heroism. Those times when we appear to have hearts of gold. The giving spirit of individual people, and even corporations, in the face of our Government's calous attitude towards the victims of Hurricane Katrina... now that was definately a contrast. The president wanted looters shot on site, while Walmart was begging to send relief trucks. Walmart, the picture of corporate evil... honestly wanting to help. They were litterally begging to help. Our president wouldn't allow them in, and instead called them refugees, and tried to tell the American people that our fellow Americans were not entitled to relief, at all... even to the degree we would offer it to a foreign country. Yet Bush is human... I guess. Not sure... Hitler good?? Bush has a heart in his chest?? Not an atomic bomb?? or some toxic poison... they aren't pure evil incarnate? I suppose... not sure.
I can give intelectual lip service to the no evil ideology... but deep down in my heart... I can't say that without doubting. Evil may be ill defined, it may not be a racial thing, or an angel vs. demon thing, or a religious thing, be that astral or physical races, but that is because it isn't limited to race or religion, or even lack of religion... it is just there in men's hearts, right along side the good.
I think maybe Terry Jacks, poppy inspired words penned in 1971 helped form my concept of evil. I have always thought what he said was profound.
Evil grows in the dark Where the sun it never shines Evil grows in cracks and holes And lives in people's minds
DOA more recently recorded this, but Where Evil Grows was originally performed by a group called the Poppy Family Terry wrote all their songs.
Anyway I think Terry was probably right. Evil is in the mind. It exists because of the darkness of men's souls. No one or nothing has to be evil... it is a choice of which impulse we act on, but yes Deep down I think Terry was right. Evil exists. We are all capable of it, and at some point we all relize it.
It would be nice to say it does not, but those same people who really teach the idea that evil doesn't exist, highly discourage anger in their students. Even though they say their is no evil, only ignorance, they feel that anger is morally and ethically wrong... and not part of right thinking. They also acknowledge that greed exists, and it too is condemned.Thus anger, greed, and ignorance are just their words for evil, or their explaination of it, but in any case they never convinced me fully that evil doesn't exist, just that they avoid the word, and explain the phenomonon differently.
Perhaps someday I may become enlightened enough to completely set aside the concept of evil, but really... would that make any difference? If it doesn't exist, then my believing that it does, doesn't change that, and if it does, me changing my mind won't make it disappear... it would just make me blind to it.
Honestly I can see it both ways, but I feel it only one way. Unfortunately I believe evil exists.
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deamons
Jun 18, 2007 8:24:23 GMT -5
Post by Wunderkind on Jun 18, 2007 8:24:23 GMT -5
...and according to your point of view, Hitler could be a protagonist, while ghandi could be an antagonist, just depends on what you beleive and how you choose to see things. If Hitler wasn't considered a protaganist to someone then he would have never gained that kind of blind devotion. If Gandhi had not been considered an antagonist by someone, he would not of been killed. So yes. Heh, I am satisfied calling something evil with the full knowledge that it is an interpretation based upon my own morals.
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deamons
Oct 24, 2007 22:07:35 GMT -5
Post by lordazurath on Oct 24, 2007 22:07:35 GMT -5
well, ive looked up demons once beofre, and they are currently defined as "Angels who do not follow God." that doesnt mean that they are evil though, as many belive.
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deamons
Oct 25, 2007 2:22:47 GMT -5
Post by KG on Oct 25, 2007 2:22:47 GMT -5
Technically those are called fallen angels, at least in these kinds of circles, not that you are incorrect. That definition works fine, except it is kind of narrow. It is like saying cats are black. Some cats ARE black... but not all, and not all demons are fallen angels. There are other things that can be demons other than fallens. Vocabulary tends to vary, and sometimes even Webster gets his theology crossed. IN general vocabulary is one of the main obsticals to intelectual theological discussions. In short definitions of things like the word Demon tend to be kind of a guess, or a matter of usage. We can take it back to the origional greek, and they didn't follow the Christian religion, or believe in angels, much less fallen ones. The Church established certain beliefs after much debate, but then other churches sprung up... and disagreed about it.
Anyway Fallens are not usually evil you are correct on that. We should have a long talk on that sometime. They can be bitter, but they can get over it too.
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deamons
Oct 25, 2007 2:34:37 GMT -5
Post by a'Lan Mandragoran on Oct 25, 2007 2:34:37 GMT -5
Most fallen angels that I've known are fallen by choice and now toe the line between Light and Darkness. They were too confined in the Light but do not want to do evil. They're neutral and play both sides for better or worse. They're more like humans than angels now, but retain a large part of their power.
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deamons
Oct 25, 2007 6:35:02 GMT -5
Post by lordazurath on Oct 25, 2007 6:35:02 GMT -5
we should talk about it.. but i was just giving the definition to spark more conversation
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deamons
Oct 25, 2007 11:54:36 GMT -5
Post by a'Lan Mandragoran on Oct 25, 2007 11:54:36 GMT -5
THe best way to bring something up is to bring something up <.< >.> Yeah... Not exactly what I wanted to say, but yeah. hehe
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deamons
Oct 25, 2007 19:16:52 GMT -5
Post by KG on Oct 25, 2007 19:16:52 GMT -5
I was just trying to say it is a long story. There is probably a lot on the site about it already but overall I'll try to be brief
Fallen angels are not always to blame for being fallen. Here is what I believe. Most of this can be found in a document called the Pistis Sophia, some of it can be found in the Bible, and the rest I have learned from speaking to angels and other astral entities. I have also verified some of it by talking to incarnate angels.
A very long time ago.... God created the Aeons He made many of these things on different levels. Aeons are aspects of God, or eminations of God, depending on how you translate the sanscrit word. Jewish Kaballists often refer to them as Facets of God. I can't explain it without making God sound like he has Multiple Personality disorder, but maybe he does... er... that is as close as I can come to explaining it. Anyway since we are all part of God, I guess god is multiple personality... and it doesn't seem to be a disorder. A lot of people are multiple, and it isn't a problem for most of them.
Anyway there are many Aeons, and one was called Demurge, the Craftsman. He is responsible for the solid and unyielding nature of the planet in my opinion, and he was also once in charge of many angels. Some say all the angels, but I highly doubt that... I don't know for sure though. Demurge was always the strict one. He was harsher than all the other Aeons, and very power hungry. He tended to be egoic, and enjoyed being God. He wasn't all of God, and really he didn't agree with the other aeons very much. HE caused a lot of problems, and he always battled with Sophia. HE was jealous because she was one ring above him, and he thought she was powerhungry too, but being wisdom, she was just curious, and facinated with the light of God. IN any case he caused her trouble especially. They have had a bitter war between his group and her group for eons.
Now Demurge had a cruel streak, and he became increasingly power mad. He loved rules, and he greatly enjoyed enforcing them, both on man kind and his angels. Sophia (the spirit of wisdom) was more lenient. She felt that if you just helped people understand what was really going on they would naturally do the right thing. She could use her influence to help them be smarter and do a better job of whatever they were trying to do. Demurge liked harsh punishments though. HE didn't like explaining himself either. He encouraged illiteracy in common people, and despised those who wanted to really learn about God, and spiritual things. He especially despised the Sophian race of people. They were always curious, and always reading and poking around performing spiritual practices. For this reason he inspired the witch trials, and various persecutions like the inquisition, and murdering OT prophets, and so many efforts to cleanse the world of Wisdom.
Demurge often punished his angels too. He was very harsh, and sometimes he ordered them to attack humans. It was against the nature, and the internal honor code of an angel to attack a human. Just as sane human beings don't attack children. He also tried to convince the angels they were sexless and genderless. He hated sex in general. IT should only be practiced by the ignorant masses, whom he needed for his power base. Angels aren't sexless or genderless, though even I used to think so. He has so convinced the world of that, but it isn't true... except when he made it that way by mutilation... that was one of his many punishments, towards the end of his vicious reign of terror. Remember this guy was the spirit behind the crusades and the inquistion, so yes, he likes torture and abuse.
Human and angel alike suffered horribly under his reign. The abuse only increased with time, and through the various religous wars, Demurge pitted his own followers against each other, but what he loved most was to target and attack the Sophian race. He saved his worst torments for them. He hated the gentle nature of his angels, and tried to make them tougher with his abuse and rules. He enforced dicipline and hardships on them and continued to make them go against there better natures. He imprisoned tormented and fell them for their disobedience to his harsh rule.
The other aeons were horrified, and most horrified were the female aeons, and half the aeons were female. There was a group of Seven female aeons, who banded together to try to combat the Demurge, and the lead one was Sophia. She managed to find six of her sisters who wouldn't mind helping her in the fight. She had been quite helpless against him at first. Even though she was more powerful, she wasn't nearly so ruthless, and he was so vicious it was hard for her to imagine how she could fight against his attacks without becoming as evil as he was.
Finally a plan was made and Christ came to earth. His spiritual mother in his incarnation on earth, was Sophia, his father was God himself, because He was Logos, one of the highest Aeons... and Mary was an incarnation of her as well. She actually multiply incarnated on the earth. She has many daughters, and all of them are aspects of her. There are also male sophians who know how to use the power of the females, and also protect them from harm. When Christ was crusified it changed the climate and proved Demurge's guilt once and for all. Then Christ's soul went to Demurge's heaven and stripped him of his power. Demurge fell, but only a little, and Sophia was vindicated for her part in the war. As time went on the struggle against the Demurge drove him fruther and fruther down till today he is little more than a demon who used to belive he was God... and still tried to convince people he is... with some success among the ignorant masses he has always played to. Learned men always knew better, but those who are greedy still used him to gain power and control... and still do.
Fallen angels are usually very bitter. Demurge led them to believe he served God, and that he WAS God. Most of them never even saw his face, and so his orders were carried out by other angels without even knowing their tormentor. As far as they knew they were rejected by God, and were completely and utterly d**ned. There was nothing to do but go renegade or join Lucifer the leader of the first Fallens. Eventually though, they learned that Sophia, and the other mothers would take them in and take care of them. Sophia has been taking in Demurge's rejected angels for a thousands of years at least. They could work for the Mothers and be safe from any harm. They learned that God himself wasn't mad at them, and that Demurge was just a powermad dangerous exception to an otherwise benevolent universe.
Today most of the angels you see work for the mothers, and a few are still renegades often making raids on the Demurge on their own, because they hate him so. Still others are truely fallen. They did do wicked things... and maybe some didnt', but they were so bitter because of their experiences they refused to re-allign with God. Even today though, a Fallen angel can join another aeon, and become an angel again. They dont' have to be fallen. Just like the whole salvation message you hear on TV they can join God and be re-instated fully. IT is there choice, and people are spreading the word, just like the gospel. Angels can obtain Mercy the same as any other creature. They can also be healed of the pain and bitterness they feel. Their cropped wings can be healed, and any other tortues that left lasting effects can also be healed, if they haven't found healers already.
I know that wasn't very brief, but we just covered a lot of history. I know it is different than what you may have heard, but that is what I have pieced together after many years of study. I don't require anyone to necessarily believe it. I didn't at first. I found it very upsetting, but finally I accepted it as fact after seeing enough evidence to satisfy myself.
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deamons
Apr 16, 2008 13:53:56 GMT -5
Post by wolfblade25 on Apr 16, 2008 13:53:56 GMT -5
That actually answered a great deal of questions i obtained throughout the years. Thank you so much for that enlightening read on angels and the like.
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