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Angels
Jan 24, 2011 18:17:17 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 24, 2011 18:17:17 GMT -5
You believe that for some their perception extends far beyond another's? You believe your perception extends beyond that of others?
You admit it is possible, yet clearly state that it is objectively not the case? And you know this how? By your own self? Or by the very wisdom of God?
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Angels
Jan 24, 2011 22:56:47 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 24, 2011 22:56:47 GMT -5
That's something I couldn't really tell you in regards to my personal perception. Some are given insight to things that others are not by providence of their purpose. Some know things that others don't. And Vice versa. How do you know you're really typing? How do you know you're eating, breathing, thinking? It's not the case because If it were, trust me, I would build a much better fantasy world than the one I live in now . No. I am not hiding behind a construct of any sort. I go through existence as i've always have. I do my best not to make assumptions, but predict possibilities. I have no qualms about being brutally honest with myself to find truth. So again, No. Of this i have no doubt.
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Angels
Jan 24, 2011 23:49:36 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 24, 2011 23:49:36 GMT -5
Then...ultimately you do not know, it is a matter of faith.
Your views, words, all of them an opinion...imperfect, flawed, inaccurate.
Thus should I take your word over Lucifer's or any others? If Lucifer were to say one thing, and you another, is either one of you right?
Is not God the judge of all?
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 4:11:46 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 25, 2011 4:11:46 GMT -5
And Lucifer's, or your opinions, aren't? x]
Who's word you take was never really a question. Mine, his? That's obviously something you need to decide if you haven't decided already. Believe his honey soaked lies if it pleases you.
And yes, God is judge of all. That was never in question hehehe. Your view of Lucifer's antics were, and by conversation, my perspective as well.
I can only ever say what i've experienced and "Seen". Fact of the matter is, it's a lot like watching a war here in this world, where's one side is butchering civilians, innocents and whatnot, while the other is trying to stop it. Hypothetical really but you get the gist of it.
Lucifer is... good at what he does. Corruption. Racket ball. Ping Pong. Crocheting. Deceit. There's no shame in having been twisted by his words. Wouldn't be the first one if that is the case.
Don't be so quick to hop on the devilish bandwagon just because what he says happens to sound beautiful. Siren's come to mind
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 4:17:50 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 25, 2011 4:17:50 GMT -5
You speak as if any of it is delightful, honey soaked...it is all pain, cold mercurial wrath.
Is there light...yes there is light...a cold, dead, dreadful light.
Ultimately though Xavrael, what if I were to tell you, "xavrael" is the true enemy, the adversary, the murderer of souls. Would you believe it? What if I were to say Xavrael is the grand deceiver? And you are so strung along you are deceived to the core.
What then if you are deceived by "Xavrael" so much, and so deeply you wont even allow yourself to see it, as you have already decided what is "right" and what is true and what is not delusion, as you stated earlier.
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 5:04:01 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 25, 2011 5:04:01 GMT -5
Sarcasm doesn't translate well through text. Pain, cold Mercurial wrath sounds about right. Though, i'm not weeping for his misfortune, as it's self imposed, it's still a sad thing.
Cold, dead, dreadful light? also sounds about right. But as I said, he did it to himself as he went about all crazy like, mad and drunk with power (again, sarcasm, caustic sense of humor. You get my point though, I hope). He is as he is because of his punishment for lashing out against us in his bid for dominance.
As for Xavrael (in a word, me, my so called, "Soul self" or what ever it's called now adays xD) being the deceiver? Interesting hypothesis, but ultimately wrong.
Murderer of souls? No. Maybe a nickname or something to go along with the other (which i didn't come up with by the way), Butcher (this was mentioned to me by someone who claimed to be a demon of winter so to speak, one named Ariel if i remember right).
Misnomers seeing as how i've never, "butchered" anyone, i've faught, sure, but butcher? that would imply my mass murdering of noncombatants. And Murderer of Souls? As if the complete destruction of a soul was something that I could do on a whim without consequences brought from on high by God o.O lol.
I admit that much of my existence as Xavrael is still a mystery even to me, though there are some things that simply feel...honest, true. I was capable of subterfuge, misdirection and such, but only when I had to use those skills. When not playing a part other than myself, I've always done my best to be honest.
but, long story short, No. I've no been deceiving myself with regards to Lucifer or his part to play, or mine for that matter. So the what if's are irrelevant to what is =\
don't get me wrong though. It's always interesting to hear someone talk about things with regards to Xav, simply because it allows me to explore possibilities as to who, or what i was during those times. Things to be added or at the very least considered, so in that at least, my point is simply that I find your point of view interesting, however inaccurate that portrayal may be.
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 5:10:57 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 25, 2011 5:10:57 GMT -5
It was merely a way to outline to you xavrael, that your statements all show that you are set in stone in your view.
You believe without doubt that you are accurate in your views, and that anything which conflicts with it, is inaccurate. Even though you have no evidence, only faith.
The point of it being, when it comes to differing points of view, both backed only by faith, neither one is right or wrong. When one clearly sticks purely only to the perception which best fits their own reality, it goes to show me they are consumed by what ever it is that flows from with in them, in your case you are already consumed by "Xavrael."
Just as you state I may be consumed by "Lucifer"
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 17:04:13 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 25, 2011 17:04:13 GMT -5
Fair enough. Though I'd like to add that it's only certain things. I'm far less certain of a lot of things when it comes to my time as Xav but there are....sticking points. concepts and feelings, ideas and stances that feel like the truth and I feel is truth. I see mass murder, Lucifer may see it as saving people from themselves (even if they never asked for any help in the first place ). That sort of thing. Most things when dealing with, "i am an <insert name of non-human race>", but especially with regards with the spiritual leans on a great deal of faith. Yes, there are different view points, and yes most are only backed by experience and faith, but what one experiences, witnessed and was a part of... well. One or the other happened, and there is always a specific set of events, catalysts that bring that about. It's not so much that I am, "Consumed" by my other half so much as that I'm simply going with the the flow of what I believe is right. You make toast. The bread is burnt. Two people take a bite, one likes it, the other doesn't. The one that doesn't like it says it's burnt, while the other says it's just right. Who's right? Technically, the one who said the bread is burnt was. Just because someone may like the taste of burnt bread, doesn't make it *NOT* burnt. (hm. Sorry for the food metaphor... i'm actually pretty hungry ) Same model here. Lucifer thought he knew better than God in different ways, thought he was doing what was best for God because of hubris, to think he knew better than the creator. From that spawned a lot of different, unsavory events I suppose. hmmm... maybe. If not consumed, maybe enamored with a false representation of him and his actions. Truth be told I would much rather you not take his hand down any paths in the dark .
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 22:08:44 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 25, 2011 22:08:44 GMT -5
Once again Xavrael, it is an example, I do not follow Lucifer nor do I follow anyone. I adhere purely to "God", and no other.
The actions Lucifer did were not what he thought was best for God, Lucifer is a instrument of God, a object created by God and sustained by God. He knows full well this, secondly you attribute mass murder to Lucifer? Who are you to judge this and make this claim that he was, is responsible for all the murder, theft, bribery, and other "evil" patterns you view.
Lucifer is what ever God so wills him to be, but murder, theft, bribery and the sort only exist if God wants them to exist. Murder to one, is just salvation to another, a monster to one is a hero to another.
You attribute murder to Lucifer, destruction, chaos, darkness, deception, but that is not Lucifer, that is from God.
All concepts, all patterns, love, joy, hope, faith, deceit, hatred, destruction, vengeance, chaos, pain, and so forth are all of God, not of Lucifer. It is God who chooses which vessels shall house what and where they shall sow and reap, the vessel does not choose for it self what to do.
Furthermore how outlandish for you to believe Lucifer had the belief that he knew what was best for God, he knows full well he is but a speck in comparison to God, and that his mind, knowledge, wisdom, awareness is purely what God shares with him.
Lucifer, you, the person down the lane, are all fueled by the Will of God, aware of it or not. It seems to be what you dislike most, is not Lucifer, but rather the "negative" aspects of God, and you so seek to attribute them in any indirect way to some thing that is not God, thus Lucifer.
Destruction, dominance, pride, hatred, love, loyalty, perseverance, will, kindness, mercy, power, all these things are of God, the ones you like and the ones y0u dislike.
It seems to me Lucifer is but a scapegoat to you, one of which you can align the blame of all the things you so dislike of reality.
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 22:22:39 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 25, 2011 22:22:39 GMT -5
No, I don't blame him for all of the ills of the world(s), It's simply that whereas Michael is a paragon of "light", Luci is the same of darkness. He embodies all of those negative qualities, and while God allows such things to exist, they are not *of* Him. Murder? Deceit? Those are "man made" things. Not concepts that are born of God because he is beyond those things. To give birth to Murder and the other negative things one has to also take into account why those things are done in the first place, those motivations and why they would be in an infinite being in the first place.
Yes, he is the Alpha and the Omega (to take a quote), but those things were never of God. Those things Exist for balance, but are not there because he wills murder, chaos and so on. Not to say that he *Can't*, because that would be limiting the unlimited quality of God, but that was never something he willed us to do. Those things are corrupted instruments we take upon ourselves. People Murder and do other negative things because they will it. Not because God does.
A monster is still a monster, no matter the ends or the reasoning. Because to be a, "monster", one first has to do something Monstrous.
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 22:29:26 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 25, 2011 22:29:26 GMT -5
And this Xavrael is where we disagree on how we we view God.
I view God as embodying all and everything, murder, chaos, justice, love, hatred, God creates and brings forth both light and darkness, both peace and catastrophe, both wide spread destruction and murder, as well as wide spread salvation and safety.
Hatred, pride, deceit, all emotions, nothing is man made, it is all made by God, fear, wrath, cruelty, the very foundations of "darkness" and "chaos" are of God.
You view God in a very limited way from my point of view, you view God as consisting only of the things you want God to, only the "good" things. You also provide a loop hole saying God could still will them but doesn't. God is both hateful, and loving, cruel and merciful, God is all things, the things you love and hate.
Lucifer very well might be the Darkness of God, but he is also the Light of God, Light and Darkness are one and the same, as created and willed by God. Kindness, Love, Hatred is what ever God wants it to be.
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Angels
Jan 25, 2011 22:40:36 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 25, 2011 22:40:36 GMT -5
He is the embodiment of everything, but murder? hate? God was never cruel, though at times wrathful, but never cruel.
My point was that God allows all of these things to exist, all concepts for balance. But He would not WILL anyone to be cruel to another, he would not WILL anyone to murder someone in cold blood. These are things that people do very well on their own.
my view of God is one that is above those things because he has no need for them, but has an interest in fostering growth in all of his creations. When it comes to those negative things however, we do that on our own just as well for our own petty reasons and motivations.
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Angels
Jan 26, 2011 1:21:19 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 26, 2011 1:21:19 GMT -5
Once again we view differently, believe differently.
I believe "God" wills all, hatred, wrath, cruelty, joy, mercy, disdain, contempt, destruction, to create, to destroy, to burn to drown. All willed by God and only by God.
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Angels
Jan 26, 2011 1:31:44 GMT -5
Post by Xavrael on Jan 26, 2011 1:31:44 GMT -5
Hm. Well, it's an interesting view point considering I agree with some of it.
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Angels
Jan 30, 2011 22:08:46 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Jan 30, 2011 22:08:46 GMT -5
To add more to it, I believe God is conflicted with its own self and part of it wants to do one thing and part of it wants to do another thing. I believe all actions are reflections of its own conflicts, choices, beliefs, such as the war of heaven being a reflection of its own internal conflict with itself.
Lucifer was the manifestation of God, as was Michael, each representing a different piece of God. One third sided with Lucifer for one third of God at the time was agreeance, while two thirds sided with Michael as the other two thirds was in agreeance with itself.
I believe God in part wants to destroy everything and everyone, to leave nothing behind, to depart entirely from its own self. Is the end set in stone? No. Does God know every ending? Yes God is aware of every ending as they are all apart of it, the difference being which God is going to use.
I believe God allows all the pieces of itself, all its "thoughts" to manifest and interact to help it see them play it, to help it ultimately choose. Is the ending depicted in the "bible" the only end? No, it is but one of the many ends which may happen. Others include all existence being burned to ash, all life, concepts, all the thoughts of God being erased, everything within God ultimately "killed".
That would be God choosing to end itself I believe.
I find it curious how people chastise Lucifer, the darkness, hate, wrath, destruction, chaos, death, suffering, when those things are God personified. God is darkness, fear, hatred, as much as God is light, joy, love, it creates both effortlessly.
I find those who are against certain aspects, are reflections of God which are attuned to one "ending" more then another, who are a reflection of a desire of God more so then another.
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