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Angels
Dec 26, 2008 5:43:09 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 26, 2008 5:43:09 GMT -5
Was he being manipulated or perhaps he saw what no one else did? In lucifers perception, would his "power base" lie in others, or within?
Couldn't one say, the fact that others think he is not doing anything right now, attest to the progress of what he is doing?
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Lucifer manipulated by another, it is possible, it also possible that Lucifer saw what no one else could see and took action. To others it could seem selfish and foolish, but to him the scope and the big picture would be entirely different.
What some could have seen as a war on all existence, another could have perceived as saving what the "creator" loved most.
Now why would lucifer play passive, when his head so to speak, is desired by many to be put on a spit. Then again one must consider if Lucifer purposely disbanded his followers for a time, for some thing else to progress.
Narrowing it down to three options, really shortens your scope of what could be. Is his goal to fight any "faction" so to speak?
His forces weak? Or purposely disbanded.
Balance is useful.
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Angels
Dec 26, 2008 19:26:29 GMT -5
Post by KG on Dec 26, 2008 19:26:29 GMT -5
Hi Cassile!!!
It is good to have new input on this old subject. I appreciate having some new logic inserted here, especially now that my own logic is having a hard time making heads or tails out of the events that transpired many months ago, and the confusing mess we are enduring now.
The war has changed in character, to the point it doesn't seem as clear cut, or even comprehensible to me at the moment. Open battle is not part of the picture, at least for me. I sense conflict, and subtrafuge, but nothing overt is going on astrally.
Good questions. I think he was being pressured by Demurge,as were many other angels, and he was being led to believe that he was being corrected by God when in fact he wasn't. It was Demurge who was so harsh in managing the angels. Many angels have left the service of Demurge, since Lucifer, because of Demurge's increasing cruelty. Still some say that Lucifer did not realize that it was Demurge who was acting on his own in God's stead. Demurge set up insane rules for angels, which had nothing to do with God's wishes, much as modern preachers create a lot of non biblical rules for their congrigations to follow.
As for Lucifer's perceptions... well that is a very good question. I was refering to the fact he took one third of the angels with him when he fell. I was considering them as his powerbase, but perhaps not. I just wonder why he doesn't mind that so many renagades, and fallens including those high ups in his ranks, are signing on with Sophia, and realigning themselves through her to Heaven. Of course Sophia is the age old enemy of Demurge, and also the Mother of Christ.
I do not know what sort of power Lucifer has within... or if he could maintain it without a God connection for this long. That is a really good question.
Possibly.
Well it is hard to know his POV. I have heard he was misled. It was before my time. All accounts are second hand knowledge for me.
It is possible. As a Sophian, I do not know how Lucifer feels about us. I know he despises the Demurge, or I have heard that, and from what knowledge I have of Demurge's treatment of angels I am aquainted with, I could understand that he would. The only difference between what happened to Lucifer and what happened to Sophia, is that Lucifer blamed God, at least from what I understand, while Sophia blamed Demurge directly, and she prayed to God for deliverance from Demurge's torments.
Good point. I don't know what his goals are. I only considered it a possibility.
It is hard to know really. I do know that those who left, left of their own accord, and it isn't a double cross on their part. They are sincere.
Balance? Yes all this is about balance. Demurge is the legalist, he is Satan the accusor, in that he accuses those who slip, or just live comfortably without the self abasement of following nonsensical rules. He is out of balance towards the exoteric while Sophia and the mothers are the esoteric side of all religions. The mothers, include the Glory of God, the miracles, the mercy, the faith, and the real power. Demurge represents following the letter of the law, without ever comprehending the spirit of it, He thinks everyone should follow senseless rules blindly without ever feeling the love of God. In the dark ages we were the visionary heritics, the alchemists, and the so called witches with their familiar cats, and the inquisitors were possessed by the spirit of the Demurge.
Some people who aren't part of the struggle between wisdom and Demurge's forced ignorance, see it as a balance. WE see it as a war, and as someone who has witnessed the harm he does on multiple levels physical, spiritual, astral, and emotional... well I can't see him as useful, though perhaps the law has its place, his self serving strangle hold on mankind does not serve the spirit of the law either.
For example: The Law says thou shalt not kill. Demurge says that war is glorious, and we must kill the Arabs and they must kill us, for that is also glorious and he controls both sides with sadistic glee. God told us to be fruitful and multiply, and Demurge forbids Catholic priests and nuns to marry, and puts such restrictions and taboos on sex that Baptists are plagued with guilt for everything. Jesus said let the little children come unto me, but Demurge claims that unbaptised children go to hell. Jesus taught us to heal, and to perform miracles, but Demurgian leaders of his time and of ours think magic is strictly an ability of satan. Visions and speaking in tongues, and even eastern meditation have been called Satanic by Demurge, though Jesus clearly invited us to participate in those mysteries.
The battle between Sophians and Demurge is age old, but I was only there for the last two thousand years. I am not an old soul. I am called Mercy, and it is my place in the universe to oppose Demurge. You would think that such a rivalry would be ceremonial, but it is deep and personal, and has been in all my past lives. He has tormented my kind with inquisitors, and we have assasinated his possessed inquisitors. Our battles are astral, and in the past they have gone physical. Even now they sometimes influence current events.
Where does Lucifer fit in? I suppose he is part of another balance. I really don't know him. I suppose his people and his foes feel just as impassioned as I do about their balance, but I really wouldn't know first hand.
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Angels
Dec 26, 2008 22:59:19 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 26, 2008 22:59:19 GMT -5
The one third of existence which followed Lucifer, is like a shadow of lucifer, one third of all the "light" is within Lucifer so to speak. Most tend to channel their power from an external source, as you put it "god". However with lucifer, for a moment contemplate if his source is not external at all, that it is from within himself.
Imagine if you will, if Lucifer and his existence is some thing which flows from within himself.
Yes many may abandon him, stop following him, but to lucifer that wouldn't mean much in the grand scheme, when his "power base" is not dependent or reflected upon mass, number, or others.
Rather then linking Lucifers action to Demurge, perhaps for a moment think of the possibility if what Lucifer did, was part of a "plan", a plan which no other had any part in, a plan which only Lucifer knew, from the "creator" so to speak.
Some times, to help an individual grow, you must spurr their "emotions" in a way they have not prior.
I'm curious, do you know how it feels, when you are the most loved by a singularity, and you love that singularity most above all and before all in unconditional reciprocation? And then that love is taken from you, dimmed, turned to another, while you still continue to give your unconditional love to that one, it causes feelings of "betrayal". The greater capacity one has to love, the greater capacity one has to hate, after all love and hate are one and the same, the only difference is how you express and wield that drive and motivation.
Lucifer is a unique individual, if you could call him one.
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Angels
Dec 27, 2008 9:30:12 GMT -5
Post by KG on Dec 27, 2008 9:30:12 GMT -5
As a Sophian, I guess I do tend to blame Demurge for everything... but usually the shoe fits. He was always the fly in the ointment. He was always stiring trouble because really HE not Lucifer was the one who was jealous, petty, etc. He could stir that emotion in others, especially humans, but not limited to humans I am sure. He hated Sophia because she was higher than him, and still sought to know God better. He misinterpreted that into her trying to climb the corporate ladder so to speak, instead of for what it was, a desire to know God.
So who was trying to get whom to grow. God growing Lucifer or Lucifer trying to improve God... either way I don't think it was helpful.
Personally, I don't think I was ever anyone's favorite... Maybe my parents, but only because I was an only child. AS for singularities... well no I've never been the favorite, but I will say that the real God makes everyone feel like the favorite. Most all Aeon's and Angels as well have ways of making everyone feel special. I suppose it is possible that Lucifer mistook God's affection as being exclusive, and then noticed that he was concerned for others as well, but I find it hard to believe that an intelligent and well adjusted individual would have taken that so hard. I know a lot of people slant it that way, but I think he could get used to it.
As you know the Bible, sometimes confuses Demurge and God. Demurge could have a favorite. He is a petty power mongering idiot, who deluded himself and others, to think that HE was the Supreme being, when in fact he one of many Aeons. At one time though he was in charge of most if not all of the angels, not as the final authoirty though, just as immediate supervisor. Most of them never even saw him, but he gave orders, and led them to think those orders came from the most high, at least according to angels I have spoken with this was the case. They never actually saw Demurge or God.
I think that Demurge is much more likely to have been offensive than God himself. He could make angels miserable, and he did it for his own enjoyment. I tend to think that Demurge caused the problem. I can see him shooting boosters to Lucifer, telling him he was so powerful and smart, and then snatching that approval away, or making it seem that the disapproval came from higher up. It was a common ploy of his actually. Demurge is... not nice, but it took much longer for him to Fall. Jesus himself took him down a knotch 2000 years ago, and he continued to fall. His fall was not accomplished in one sweep.
If you want to know about the Demurge you have to read Gnostic texts, and then you can go back to the bible and see the similarities between the entity Jesus calls Satan and you know he means Demurge, especially Matt:23
I believe that hate is love coupled with the fear of loss.
So do you know him?
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Angels
Dec 27, 2008 11:14:51 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 27, 2008 11:14:51 GMT -5
You tend to see things from a very situated view point, very bitter and ingrained towards some thing.
Mistook the affection as exclusive? No, it is a relationship you have with one that makes it what it is, do you think Lucifer views all others as individuals, or as a singular mass, existence, as one? The perception that Lucifer holds is that existence itself is from "God" as a test, a machine, a mechanism, if you will, to evolve and change who and what he is. Lucifer both loves and hates "god" infinitely. In Lucifers "mind" what he is doing is some thing he believes only he can do, is it for himself, or for god? To Lucifer it is one and the same.
Love, Fear, Hatred, all emotions, all motivation, each is one and the same, all flowing from the same source, just different on how you perceive them and wield them.
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Angels
Dec 27, 2008 21:10:25 GMT -5
Post by KG on Dec 27, 2008 21:10:25 GMT -5
Hi Cassiel,
Are you THE Cassiel? IF so... er... I found this on a google search.
When to ask Archangel Cassiel for help When your life is out of balance or you feel overwhelmed with stress and are ready to make the necessary changes to bring harmony into your life.. How to ask ?
Cassiel assist me as I release all disharmony Cassiel balance the light and dark within me Cassiel show me how to bring peace into my life As I consciously balance within serenity is reflected in my surroundings
If you are a form of this entity in some way, incarnated, then you are someone I need to talk with, because yes you are probably right about your statement below, and I could use some balance and peace.
Maybe so. Mostly I am just tired of a certain thing. I don't like a certain spirit in the universe that is true, and it is an almost universal characteristic, which has a finger in everybody's existance and always has. It is a dangerous thing that threatens us all, but especially the poor and downtrodden, the mentally slow, and the easily led. All the people who can least afford it are as always the most vernerable, and that really bothers me.
To me, "Burn the witches, and Hang their cats," sounds just like "Explode the abortion clinic." "Shoot the Rag heads," sounds just like Death to the great Satan (USA)" "Deport the Mexicans, they took our jobs," sounds a lot like "Put um on a boat and send um all back to Africa." When I hear these kinds of things, I hear the same voice, and that is Demurge...
I hear his voice from the Religious right, which usurped my church. The whole denomination, and its sister denominations. WE were a movement which was doing a lot of good: feeding the poor, healing the sick, housing those who needed care, and giving a lot of comfort to people that the rest of society felt were unworthy of thought much less care. Then suddenly due to government forced changes in leadership, The Assemblies of God, and many other pentecostal and Baptist movements became the cesspool of self righteous hogwash they are today. It isn't the pastors. It is coming from higher up and lower down, and they are just caught in the squeeze. I still love my pastors and my former fellow church goers, but many of them have been sold a real bill of goods. It does make me want to throw up. I can't lie about that.
I love them, and yet I really really find it irritating that they support the war in Iraq, with their children's lives no less... encourage that. They say all kinds of ignorant things they wouldn't have said 20 years ago. It seems so strange to me that they homeschooled their kids, and didn't let them watch voilence on TV, or TV period in some cases. They forbid Rock music, and dancing, but in the blink of an eye they send these previously insanely guarded children to Iraq to fight a war, which they misconstrue as some kind of holy war, in almost the same extreme the Muslims do? I do not understand. I do not approve, and the apparent ignorance of it breaks my heart... especially because these people were and in some ways still are my friends, but it drives me up the wall to be around them now.
I remember this same voice from the Inquisitor, and the angry mob that set fire to me 700 years ago as a Heritic. I'm still a heritic. Just waiting for someone to light a fire. The Good Men and Women of the Pyrenes of Southern France were above reproach in most cases, though perhaps I wasn't. I remember it well, and I remember a lot of other instances well enough to smell that spirit when it is around.
I know nothing of Lucifer anymore. Demurge is my devil.
In other words, I have disdane for inquisitors, totalitarianism in Government, and the ignorant masses who think they are righteous, but are really just judgmental, and truely they are just bored old busybodies who envy sinners their more interesting lives. They are not practicing holiness. I understand holiness and it comes from within. They are practicing external religion without the spirit of God. They are led by the opportunists who know they can manipulate them easily. The opportunists are generally controled also by a spirit Demurge... call it an aspect of human nature, and aspect of the universe is more like it.
And yes I know, He who fights the monster, must be careful that he or she does not become the monster. I am in a constant battle with that on the inside. I know I have it within me to be my own shadow, as everyone does, and believe me the shadow of Mercy is a frightful thing. I am what I am, and that is a delicate balance, which sometimes gets out of balance.
Like you I want harmony. I am naturally way too peaceful. I hardly ever make a stir in the natural, but some things do have to be taken care of, and sometimes we are just attacked. I have to confess that I am a bit passive agressive. I will take and take, till I can't take it any more and then I blow up. I have trouble speaking my mind until I am furious. Then if it is someone I have to be polite to, like an elder, or someone I feel deserves respect, I just sulk off and abandon them until I can calm down, which sometimes takes years.
I've experienced some hard knocks in this life by modern standards, but they are nothing compared to past life experiences. I am not so much bitter, though maybe a little, as I am watchful, and concerned. I have seen impending threats. I'd rather fight an astral war, than a physical one, and our efforts do impact the physical world. I"ve seen it. Our battles can be read in the headlines, and in the hearts and minds of the average person. It is a balance, and the world is out of balance. It is about to backlash in what I consider to be the right direction. I am just hoping that it will be a controled backlash.
This is an interesting statement, and one I would choose to consider for a while. A question though, in most human relationships, one doesn't ever really know for sure how the other feels. I mean we can sense the moods of others, but they change, and for example a husband can say I love you one day, and cuss you for all he is worth the next. How do you know which emotion is true? It seems to vary, and how does one know which emotion is the most true of the whole being? God knows how we feel... but does Lucifer? Would he necessarily know how God feels? Would it be comprehensible to him?
I've heard that he thinks of us as a single mass, but I find that hard to imagine considering his IQ. Why would he oversimplify to that degree? So that everything other than himself is one thing?
In a way that is correct, but it is true of everyone. Life is designed to evolve and change whom we are. Everyone we meet molds us, and we mold them. It isn't just a self centered thing though, like going into a beauty salon, where all the hairdressers, and manicurists, and cosomtologists work on you, while you just sit. You have to work on others too, and perhaps he does. Most of the time, it is when you decide to help others that you are most profoundly effected.
Interesting... and I see that POV, but why is he doing it in a negative way, by rebellion.
Interesting. When I feel love and compassion, my heart chakra feels totally different than when I feel fear... and to me hatred or anger is just an outgrowth of fear. We fear a loss, and we respond with anger to defend against possible loss. Sometimes though it works against us and only increases our loss, but it saves our pride to be angry instead of crying and appearing fearful. It feels weak to admit fear and sorrow, and anger is usually the emotion of choice when we have a choice.
I know I was filled with primal anger when my father died. I was not mad at God, or mad at the doctors, or even mad at my Dad for dying. I was a little mad at myself for not being able to change the events, and I always blame myself, but mostly it was just primal and directionless anger, like the kind you get when you are in pain, and cannot find a source. Like being shot with a bullet from an invisable enemy. I was angry, but not at anyone, and it was only a feeling, not a thought.
I've always divided emotions into two groups, love and fear, positive and negative emotions. I do know that in order to really hate someone you have to have either loved them once, or to have loved something that they took away from you or destroyed... or perhaps just the threat of distruction... like hating the sex offender who moves in next door to your family. It isn't that you hate him... fact is you fear what he might do, so badly that it feels like hatred, because you fear the loss.
If someone is no longer a threat the hate fades, like when an abuser is in the rest home dying, the hate often fades, occasionally it is replaced by sympathy. It is hard to hate what you do not fear on some level. Occasionally people are so repulsed by a deformity on someone that they actually are made fearful enough to hate them just for that... and people sometimes hate the poor... because that is a symbol of their own worst fears for themselves. At least that is how I always looked at it.
What you said is interesting to me though, and I am very curious about it. It is true that it both positive and negative emotions come from the heart chakra... at least with me. I feel the sensation there, but it FEELS like it is different. Maybe that is what you mean by weilding. With positive emotions there is a fullness, like a pressure which I usually let escape like a beacon out of my chest. With a negative emotion it is like a crushing vacuum and I have a choice, to allow the vacuum to continue, or to puff it out with anger, or at least a feeling of "I am going to do something about this." I think anger... not hatred, but just anger, is kin to a decision to take action, as opposed to feeling helpless and victimized. Maybe not violence, or even revenge, just some action to protect ones self. Once the decision to defend is made, I always feel better, but I continue to dread a little until the action is planned and carried out.
I am considering the idea though of it all being the same, and I am very interested in what you just said. It is facinating.
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Angels
Dec 28, 2008 6:58:06 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 28, 2008 6:58:06 GMT -5
I would imagine Lucifer questions how god feels every moment, while simultaniously never questioning and only going with the flow of it so to speak. Then again, the only one Lucifer walks with is "god" so to speak, his one and only true friend.
The difference between lucifer and others I imagine, would be that in lucifers mind everyone evolves, but he evolves more so and further then anyone else, that he has the greatest potential of all and that all others are nothing in comparison of who he truly is, or rather what he truly will be.
To see everything and everyone, as all "god" that their is not true individuality to anyone or anything, except himself, that he Lucifer is the only true unique individual who not only has the only free will but is free will. That all others are incarnations of "god" parts and extensions of "god" who are to help Lucifer grow, learn, understand, evolve, so that he may become what he believes only he can become, what "god" desires for him to become. He does not dismiss individuals, that would be foolish, but at the same time, he sees everyone as a singular mass, do you understand? He sees them as both simultaneously.
Rebelling....this isn't rebellion...this is growing, learning, evolving, learning to understand "Him" more.
From what I have learned, as long as there is pride, love and hate exist as well.
No.
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Angels
Dec 28, 2008 9:22:20 GMT -5
Post by KG on Dec 28, 2008 9:22:20 GMT -5
What about the other fallens, and the nine princes of hell? Doesn't he hang out with them?
Sounds like some men I have known... It also sounds annoying. LOL Anyway when you consider the aeons, or even ALL the angels that is simply not true... He is NOT the most powerful individual in the universe or anything of the sort, nor is he the center of the universe. Everyone has potential, which I suppose would be the same potential though I never thought of it that way till now. We can all evolve or change, to exactly the same degree, regardless of whom we are. No being is limited except by his own mind, and the restrictions he places on himself, and what he deems as possible.
In any case as my teacher pointed out that we can only change ourselves and not others, but when we change ourselves, often people change their behavior towards us, and it fixes the entire situation. I suppose that Lucifer's strong self focus, could eventually lead to a change that would change how he is thought of and treated... at least that is how most of us do it.
Sure, and that is the correct way to see it. Eastern Religion teaches only the former, and western culture only the latter, and to that extent both are foolish. We are both simultaneously, and so much more. Honestly it is even more complex because we are many things, both individually and together, and in groups... and so many things on the inside, and not just a singular thing.
How is it that only he IS free will, and what is so great about free will anyway... it seems that most people including himself, only use it to get into more trouble. LOL I am joking in a way, but it does seem that free will does most people no favors, because they are impulsive and don't think things through. I prefer to ask for guidance, and consider what I am doing carefully.
He seems a bit self centered from your description. In a way you are describing a two year old, more than an age old angel. Of course the longer one could expand that growing and expanding stage of the two year old mind the smarter one would be. At the same time, we necessarily learn eventually, whatever there is to learn, and we grow.
There is always pride, and hate, and if we are lucky, Love, especially among humans and other imperfect beings. The problem with people, occasionally including myself is that we think we get over things. We think we are above certain emotions, and perhaps for a time we are, but those feelings always arise again eventually, in some other direction. Real loss of pride is painful, but it doesn't endure forever. To keep ourselves pride free would be like weeding a 100 acre garden by hand. It would be impossible to get everything, without using weed killer (a specific set of emotions,) and the weed killer... poisons more than just the weeds. I've had this happen to me before, not of my own volution, it is just something that happened, and I had to make the best of. Oddly eventually I developed pride in my lack of pride. LOL Isn't that silly. We are all silly, and hoplessly deluded sometimes.
That is disappointing, cause he sounds like someone I could benefit from talking to. I was hoping you could at least channel him, or relay messages. So how did you arrive at the name?
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Angels
Dec 28, 2008 17:18:02 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 28, 2008 17:18:02 GMT -5
Everyone and everything is infinite, as I said however Lucifer believes that he and because who what and who he is, because of his self and that which is within, his "Will" he will overcome and surpass all others, everything. In the end words arguing that everyone is equal or not equal isn't the point, it is who's flowing Will overcomes the other, much like many pieces on a board, each devouring one another, growing from consuming the other pieces until only one remains.
With free will one can grow in ways one without it can not, you raise a child with no free will and in the end that child will be lacking.
For example, Lucifer and Michael.
You seem to underestimate understanding and knowledge of two years old, one thousand years old, you need all of the pieces when you are infinite. Take other beings of grand age, and in comparison, in combat, in conflict, they may have the highest pieces of the pyramid, but they lack the lowest pieces of that same pyramid which leads to their undoing.
Power does not exist, it is the knowledge, understanding, wisdom, intelligence of how to control and wield, how to be one. You may take a being of eternal power and put it against a child of infinite wisdom, understanding, knowledge, experience, and that "power" will be dismantled by "Will", undone, changed.
All in all arguing who is above who, is silly, because that is not what it is about, it does not matter who holds what rank as rank and reputation is meaningless in the grand scheme, its only purpose for the time being serves as a way to swim through the different streams and channels.
The center of the universe...no, from his perception he is existence and all else flows forth from him, self centered? Self focused? When you see yourself as what he sees himself being, as what he Will be, not by his plan, but by the "creators" plan, then you may begin to understand why he may appear "self centered".
What makes the words of "Cassiel" more so then my own? It is purely from your perceived stature of "Cassiel" that drove you to hope that I was that individual, so my words would hold more weight.
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Angels
Dec 28, 2008 21:33:34 GMT -5
Post by KG on Dec 28, 2008 21:33:34 GMT -5
I never said everyone is equal. I said everyone has the exact same potential... of course this is not true of the physical realm alone. As long as we think we are the physical body, and brain, and not beyond that, then we are far from equal. As long as we accept our given limitations as fact we are limited, but I see where we could all atain whatever we sought to be on any realm. If we refused to bow to our own limitations, and we would NOT have to consume each other to get it.
I don't see why consuming, until there is only one is necessary, if as you said his power base comes from within. When one's power comes from within, then others are irrelivant to the quest for power. Why would one want to consume another anyway? Would it not be a contaminate to one's own soul to contain all others? Wouldn't that just bring the competitors into the inside rather than external competition... provided one considered them as rivals.
Children gain free will gradually, and I don't think anyone really practices autogenic free will, because the parent does leave a mark, even if it is something like, "Don't drink the Draino, and don't play in Traffic," which is a very worthwhile message. If kids didn't get that message in one way or another, and adapt it to whatever situation they were in, there would be no children, with or without the free will. Still someone playing in traffic and drinking Draino might very well be practicing free will, but not for long.
What makes you think angels don't have free will, as much as anyone else? WE can all do what we want, men angels, and children all, but large or small winged or not, our actions have consequences. Life is cause and effect. Free will must be practiced in full understanding of that, which in fact limits free will considerably. Angels are wise, and they do have free will, they just choose to use it wisely.
Well doesn't everyone want all the pieces? Doesn't everyone want their questions answered? I understand that you are only explaining his POV, so don't take this personally, but he sounds like a brat.
Don't get me wrong, everyone should know that they are special. They should know their parents love them, and their parents in turn recognize that their child is like no other at least in some way... at the same time, all people and all beings have commonalities. Maturity is recognizing other people are also special, and that doesn't take anything away from our own unique wonderful selves.
Maturity is also realizing that everyone has potential for greatness, as well as potential to do absolutely nothing, and as well as potential to be a pain in the butt, and a thorn in the side. Despite our uniqueness, or maybe because we are all unique, we everyone have the potential to be any and all of the three even during the course of one human life time. WE have a choice of positive behavior, negative behavior, or to do nothing at all.
I can tell you, that free will, if by that you mean doing whatever you want, can lead to behavior which is annoying to others, and harmful to the self. Annoying others has it's own unique consequence depending on who or what you annoy.
Doing your own thing in your own time can be a wonderful experience, but working with others towards a common goal, or simply helping others is also rewarding.
So you are saying that Lucifer is going to march out of his relative obscurity, and a reputation which is fueled only by human curiosity over a few obscure biblical references to outwit all other angels, aeons, and the great light of heaven as well? Now that is something I don't see happening, nor do I think from what you said his pyramid is well built at all. A being who does not consider anything but himself, neither ally or adversary, and does whatever he likes regardless of consequences, is not thinking straight.
Power very much does exist. Our energy is a form of power, but God has greater power. It may spring from knowledge, understanding and wisdom, but if so that was so long ago that no one knows. Power springs from the God, the light being. It resurected Jesus, and it performs miracles even today, and I've seen it used by people who probably lacked in knowledge, but had faith. It is there for all of us to use.
It isn't a matter of rank, it is just a matter of working together, all things working together... and from what you say, Lucifer isn't a team player at all. I don't know if that is so or not, just going by what you say.
The thing that flows forth from the individual is the perception of the existance of others, not the existance of others. If the individual goes away everything else remains, but they are not aware of it, because they are away.
Your words are interesting. They aren't any more or less interesting because of whom you are or aren't but it would be more interesting if I I knew a bit about who was speaking them, and who the speaker believed herself to be. Like in a play, you want to know the name of the character and what they represent. Sometimes people play themselves and sometimes they play a part. It is the same on the internet, and in life.
Though I still don't have an answer to my questions, the way you responded to the question was somewhat enlightening, even if only by omission. You don't wish me to know who you are yet, and you are cloaking rather successfully. You are keeping this conversation strictly accademic, and that is fine, but I am by nature very curious, and usually curiosity outweighs caution... much like the preverbial cat.
I learned from your response that you aren't ready to warm up, and make your own characteristics, and personality known. We are having an intelectual conversation, in which you wish to remain anon. You do not wish to tell me why you picked your name, which could give a clue to your own character and motivaion. That is OK. I was just wondering.
I tend to be very open about who I am, my flaws, and my ideas however nutty they may seem. I am imperfect and I don't mind showing it, and even exagerating my own imperfections to make a point, or satisfy a curiosity. Perhaps it isn't wise, or cautious, but I am more comfortable that way. I gather you aren't, and that is OK. To each his/her own.
I enjoy speaking to you, whomever you are, and eventually maybe I will learn more about you. We tend to be more personal here than on some forums. Anyway feel free to be as open or as cryptic about your identity and existance, as you choose.
Kim
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Angels
Dec 29, 2008 4:36:01 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 29, 2008 4:36:01 GMT -5
I never said everyone is equal. I said everyone has the exact same potential... of course this is not true of the physical realm alone. As long as we think we are the physical body, and brain, and not beyond that, then we are far from equal. As long as we accept our given limitations as fact we are limited, but I see where we could all atain whatever we sought to be on any realm. If we refused to bow to our own limitations, and we would NOT have to consume each other to get it. I don't see why consuming, until there is only one is necessary, if as you said his power base comes from within. When one's power comes from within, then others are irrelivant to the quest for power. Why would one want to consume another anyway? Would it not be a contaminate to one's own soul to contain all others? Wouldn't that just bring the competitors into the inside rather than external competition... provided one considered them as rivals. Children gain free will gradually, and I don't think anyone really practices autogenic free will, because the parent does leave a mark, even if it is something like, "Don't drink the Draino, and don't play in Traffic," which is a very worthwhile message. If kids didn't get that message in one way or another, and adapt it to whatever situation they were in, there would be no children, with or without the free will. Still someone playing in traffic and drinking Draino might very well be practicing free will, but not for long. What makes you think angels don't have free will, as much as anyone else? WE can all do what we want, men angels, and children all, but large or small winged or not, our actions have consequences. Life is cause and effect. Free will must be practiced in full understanding of that, which in fact limits free will considerably. Angels are wise, and they do have free will, they just choose to use it wisely. Well doesn't everyone want all the pieces? Doesn't everyone want their questions answered? I understand that you are only explaining his POV, so don't take this personally, but he sounds like a brat. Don't get me wrong, everyone should know that they are special. They should know their parents love them, and their parents in turn recognize that their child is like no other at least in some way... at the same time, all people and all beings have commonalities. Maturity is recognizing other people are also special, and that doesn't take anything away from our own unique wonderful selves. Maturity is also realizing that everyone has potential for greatness, as well as potential to do absolutely nothing, and as well as potential to be a pain in the butt, and a thorn in the side. Despite our uniqueness, or maybe because we are all unique, we everyone have the potential to be any and all of the three even during the course of one human life time. WE have a choice of positive behavior, negative behavior, or to do nothing at all. I can tell you, that free will, if by that you mean doing whatever you want, can lead to behavior which is annoying to others, and harmful to the self. Annoying others has it's own unique consequence depending on who or what you annoy. Doing your own thing in your own time can be a wonderful experience, but working with others towards a common goal, or simply helping others is also rewarding. So you are saying that Lucifer is going to march out of his relative obscurity, and a reputation which is fueled only by human curiosity over a few obscure biblical references to outwit all other angels, aeons, and the great light of heaven as well? Now that is something I don't see happening, nor do I think from what you said his pyramid is well built at all. A being who does not consider anything but himself, neither ally or adversary, and does whatever he likes regardless of consequences, is not thinking straight. Power very much does exist. Our energy is a form of power, but God has greater power. It may spring from knowledge, understanding and wisdom, but if so that was so long ago that no one knows. Power springs from the God, the light being. It resurected Jesus, and it performs miracles even today, and I've seen it used by people who probably lacked in knowledge, but had faith. It is there for all of us to use. It isn't a matter of rank, it is just a matter of working together, all things working together... and from what you say, Lucifer isn't a team player at all. I don't know if that is so or not, just going by what you say. The thing that flows forth from the individual is the perception of the existance of others, not the existance of others. If the individual goes away everything else remains, but they are not aware of it, because they are away. Your words are interesting. They aren't any more or less interesting because of whom you are or aren't but it would be more interesting if I I knew a bit about who was speaking them, and who the speaker believed herself to be. Like in a play, you want to know the name of the character and what they represent. Sometimes people play themselves and sometimes they play a part. It is the same on the internet, and in life. Though I still don't have an answer to my questions, the way you responded to the question was somewhat enlightening, even if only by omission. You don't wish me to know who you are yet, and you are cloaking rather successfully. You are keeping this conversation strictly accademic, and that is fine, but I am by nature very curious, and usually curiosity outweighs caution... much like the preverbial cat. I learned from your response that you aren't ready to warm up, and make your own characteristics, and personality known. We are having an intelectual conversation, in which you wish to remain anon. You do not wish to tell me why you picked your name, which could give a clue to your own character and motivaion. That is OK. I was just wondering. I tend to be very open about who I am, my flaws, and my ideas however nutty they may seem. I am imperfect and I don't mind showing it, and even exagerating my own imperfections to make a point, or satisfy a curiosity. Perhaps it isn't wise, or cautious, but I am more comfortable that way. I gather you aren't, and that is OK. To each his/her own. I enjoy speaking to you, whomever you are, and eventually maybe I will learn more about you. We tend to be more personal here than on some forums. Anyway feel free to be as open or as cryptic about your identity and existance, as you choose. Kim You are correct, Lucifer could never storm heaven, because in actuality he does not even exist. I also enjoy speaking with you, I learn much and my perception grows to be more open minded, it is why I like joining philosophical discussions, to discuss the humans problems of today using symbolic vessels such as angels, or lucifer, which are man made allegories. So from what I've gathered, the sophia are at war with the Demurge, and the demurge currently has the upper hand? So how does the sophia overtake some thing which outnumbers it and out guns it?
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Angels
Dec 29, 2008 12:52:34 GMT -5
Post by KG on Dec 29, 2008 12:52:34 GMT -5
I differ with you there. Anything ever concieved by God or Man exists. There is no seperation between symbol, alegory, and fact. We are as water, not as rock as human beings. While our bodies are solid and concrete, being in one place at once, our souls are fluid, even a vapor, and we travel about just as rivers run their course, and the water molecules evaporate, and rise to the clouds only to rain down, seep through the ground, and across to the river again. Is it the same water when it returns? Does it not contain elements of all the things that it passed through along the way? We are like the river, a product of what we have passed through, and a mixture of not only water but earth, and chemicals, and bacteria... metaphorically speaking. We mix with each other, each other's ideas, and each other's spiritual influences. Angels and Demons exist... and they have an appearance to those whos eyes see in that way. So do fairies, and elves, and pixies and sprites, and every other mythical creature. They are created beings, just as we are created beings.
The physical realm is really an abomination in some ways, a strange and uncomfortable form of existance that belies the truth that we are not our bodies, but we are more.
Does God contain us, or do we contain God? Both are true, and so it is that the water flows in the river together with other waters, and the various other elements it has picked up along the way. How do you say of water this is a water named Ralph, and this is a water named George. If you pour Ralph and George into a glass, do they not become Ralph/George very quickly. Water is not singular, and neither are we. WE are all part of each other, and every idea we are exposed to. Every thing that has an appearance in the third eye, is real... and many things that we do not see are also real and very much a part of us. Even our own bodies contain the minerals of our food, and are made up of it. WE are not a singular entity, if so we would not have physically grown from a zygot, nor would we have spiritually grown from a single thought. The chromosomes of the zygot are still key in the being and the single thought which we were born with is still a key to our soul, but much has entered and departed leaving it's mark by now, both physically and spiritually.
Yes and I have learned from you also. You are a mind opener for me too. As for symbolic, as I said above to me symbolic and real are not mutually exclusive. My mother is flesh and blood, but her symbolic meaning to me is a complexity all it's own, which really doesn't express who she is at all, merely who she is to me in my psyche. To me, there are two Janes (my mom's name) One is her actual self, and the other is her existance in my own psyche, and there are quiet a few of her there.
Lucifer is one thing, an angel, one of millions, if not billions, but because his name appears in the BOOK... well he has a chance for people to try to make contact with him, and to recreate him, and to build him up into a symbol. Therefore while his own existance is no greater or lesser than yours or mine, he is a superstar and everyone clones them in their mind. Is he these things, or is he himself? Both really considering the creativity of the human mind, and if he is as smart as you have theoretically stated then the actual angel can use that created link like a puppet, or he could just let it lay as more effective than his true self could ever be. It would be his choice.
Is it good that a devil be known or unknown though. Demurge chose not to be known as other than God. He silences any talk that there is any god but one. He is not however a proponant of unity among man kind. He spreads divisions, and lets every race and religion, believe that they are the chosen people, and all others are as nothing in the eyes of God. He is much more dangerous than well known Lucifer in that way.
Demurge is not more powerful than Sophia. He is in fact a slightly lower imination, but he is bold and brassy, and he is ploting and scheming. Like the bullies on the playground, and manipulitive scheming adults, strength and size are not always characteristics of those who take charge and push others around, so much as attitude. Sophia is hard pressed to stay ahead of his games. She has however held her own with her daughters and her sisters which are all in unity and part of her. Together we are known as the Mothers, and we do have our own power, and our own plans.
Most of Demurge's angels have either been cast out by him, or have left of their own will, and Sophia has gathered these orphans, and now her angels outnumber his. Sophia is kind to them and mothers them, instead of diciplining them harshly so naturally they have gone to the mother. Demurge is not the father though he likes to kid himself that he is. According to ledgend he is adriogenous. Neither male nor female, and he hates sex and gender for that reason. He especially hates the female, and any symbolic representation of female. He hates cats for example. He identifies himself as male, but he really isn't anything.
He sort of outguns us in a way, because of his ruthless nature, and his willingness to sink to levels we wouldn't. He is bold, and his boldness is unprecidented in the fact he masqurades as God. He manipulates religion and politics all over the world. He uses these institutions to persecute the sophians, which are a multiple incarnation of Sophia, and all the mothers and their daughters, and their sons and their consorts, are much more peaceful than Demurge. The Mother's people produce miracles, but Demurge only manipulates and lies, it is suprising how effective his lying is though. A church that operates in the spirit of the mothers, can heal, raise the dead, and perform all kinds of obviously magical results... Christ's life is an example, and he said greater works than these would we accomplish. But just as Demurge used HIS power to have Christ Crusified, through manipulation and politics, so Demurge persecutes the real church, and produces false information to lie to the believers, who are gulibale and ill informed enough to believe him. Of course the crusifixion was part of Christ's plan all along, but that does not change the fact that Demurge masterminded the actual crusifixion, Jesus just knew that he would, and used that to overtake him, with the state of existance he gained while temporarily disincarnate. That is the instance that the Christian Church refers to as his decent into hell, but the Pistis sophia explains it better, and it was not Hell. It was the level of heaven that Demurge lives on, and that explains the confusion that Satan has a level of heaven... people think that is Lucifer, and his behaviors but in fact it is Demurge and his behaviors... but he has since fallen lower than he once was.
In 1244 AD he spured the Catholic church to torture and murder the Cathars during the Albegenian Crusade. The Catholics felt this behavior was right! They felt righteous, despite the fact that they had done horrible and dispicabale things that any benevolent creature would realize were wrong. So this ability is a formidable problem. You would think that a Christian would know, that torture, war without provication, and murder by fire, of good honest people was doing evil, but Demurge has the power to convince them that they are right in commiting horrible attocities. Really if you want to recognize the actions of the Demurge, you only have to look in the direction of the smoldering corpses of the righteous, who have been maligned as heritics, witches, infidels, and... er... ignorant ragheads. It doesn't matter the phrase, when innocent people are maligned tortured and killed by self righteous hipocrites then that is a sign that Demurge is manipulating them. Sometimes as in the case of the middle east, Demurgian thinkers rank highly on both sides, and innocent poor people, at least some of them righteous, or think they are, on both sides fight the war, and recieve the awful tortures.
The US government under Bush was very Demurgian. The religious right was set in a favorable position, and the corporate entities were appropriately greedy, and they worked to manipulate the ignorant masses. It was our job to topple them using purely spiritual and verbal means. I think much of our strategy included giving him enough rope to hang himself, but it also involved battles to weaken his persuasive power. Hurricane Katrina marked our last battle, and that was the turning point is his popularity. People saw that we, not they were the benevolent.
Our war is on many fronts, spiritual, astral, and physical, though on the physial we are limited to peaceful protests and words. Again it isn't about physical activies anyway, again people are water, and they are influenced by what they pass through, even if they don't know it. I sense that change is coming, and we hear that on the news. I do not know what the future holds, but we may have gained the upper hand again. I hope so. Human thought has begun to question the wisdom of the Demurgian warlike behavior, but it is up to them to decide if they will choose his fear induced knee jerk reaction of death and distruction, or if they wish to proceed in faith and peace.
Kim
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Angels
Dec 29, 2008 20:22:26 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 29, 2008 20:22:26 GMT -5
So in your view, completely from a militaristic view point, you perceive the sophia above the demurge.
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Angels
Dec 29, 2008 22:17:34 GMT -5
Post by KG on Dec 29, 2008 22:17:34 GMT -5
Of course. I am part of her. She is my mother. Even if she were not, I would call her friend. She has treated me well, and she is kind to others. My commitment to Sophia, is soul deep. I am not an old soul, only 2000 years, but I remember most if not all of my lifetimes. Maybe this would help explain. It is the story of some of our past lives, especially the one that ended in 1244 AD. It is weird, I know, but it did happen. It was painful to recall in that kind of detail, and this side of me is something that... well Gary has warned me about at length, and it doesn't come out much at all in this life. Part 1 was typed by Gary (Frank Gold) who is the other half of my soul. It explains how he and I came to be, and bit about our mission. Part 2 is a past life regression of a cathar lifetime. Then Gary finished it up with his description of our demise. I put this up, even though it proves only that I am probably insane, but at the same time, it is what I have experienced. I would also like to say that my behavior does not represent the beliefs of the Cathars. I was motivated by my own inner pain, and not their teachings in that life. The Cathars in general were good people, and most were above reproach. Nonviolent, vegans, who helped people a lot. I was something else entirely. This probably couldn't get a PG rating, but I see that you are 28, so if you like historical fiction, which some of us believe happened to us, then feel free to read. It explains who I believe I am. spiritsense.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=pastlives&action=display&thread=372If you like you could research Cathars, Here is a good site. www.cathar.info/1211b_martyrdom.htm
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Angels
Dec 30, 2008 2:01:41 GMT -5
Post by cassiel on Dec 30, 2008 2:01:41 GMT -5
So what happens if the sophia is defeated by the demurge.
What happens when Michael comes into play?
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